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Thread: Lighting questions

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    100+ Post Member BossFrog's Avatar
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    Default Lighting questions

    Hi everyone!
    Michel was diagnosed with metabolic bone disease this morning I received medication for him and hes taking it like a champ. He lives in a 2/3gal critter keeper at the moment. Any suggestions as to brands/types of UV lighting I can use to prevent future MBD?

    thanks!



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    Default Re: Lighting questions

    A Zoo Med reptisun 5.0 would probably be the way to go. Bear in mind though, you will have to change the bulb every six months. (As you would with any UVB light). There are also some variables such as placement and distance from the substrate or basking area that you have to consider.

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    100+ Post Member BossFrog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lighting questions

    Thanks! I'll look into one and keep you updated.



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    Default Re: Lighting questions

    Are you dusting his food? And what kind of frog is he? Can we get a few more details about his enclosure, humidity, substrate, etc.?
    I currently have guinea pigs, crested gecko, 12 jumbo+ hermit crabs, lemur tree frog, and tiger-legged monkey tree frog, leopard geckos, ADF, bearded dragon, & European fire bellied toads.

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    100+ Post Member BossFrog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lighting questions

    Yes. Calcium w/o d3 which is why he has mbd.

    gulf coast toad.

    2 gal critter keeper usually. he’s in a smaller quarantine container now.

    humidity 50%.

    substrate is that coconut fiber you get in bricks and then soak. I keep it misted

    he lives w/ one other gulf coast toad and one albino and one-eyed eastern narrowmouth toad.



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    100+ Post Member Larry Wardog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lighting questions

    Check this link out. The Mazuri Better Bug Gutload and Reptocal by Tetrafauna are great sources for toads to get good nutrition.

    http://healthdocbox.com/Nutrition/65...bufonidae.html

    Sent from my BKL-L04 using Tapatalk

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    Default Re: Lighting questions

    Quote Originally Posted by BossFrog View Post
    Hi everyone!
    Michel was diagnosed with metabolic bone disease this morning I received medication for him and he’s taking it like a champ. He lives in a 2/3gal critter keeper at the moment. Any suggestions as to brands/types of UV lighting I can use to prevent future MBD?

    thanks!
    Since I am still learning about issues that can arise in my toad pets... What are the symptoms of MBD specifically in toads? I am also looking into getting a light, actually the same light that was suggested to you, but I don't want to make the wrong decision and provide UVB if they don't need it. Right now, all I am using for light is an LED desk lamp because it doesn't throw heat. The temps in the tank maintain between 68-70 degrees, which is just right for them. I do dust their crickets w/out D3 but just bought a bottle with D3, so I don't want their calcium level to boom. So... how did you know or suspect MBD? What were the signs/symptoms in Michael? Thanks!

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    100+ Post Member BossFrog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lighting questions

    Michel’s symptoms were weakness especially in his back legs, rubbery bones, reduced appetite, and jaw hanging open. My light is working well and it doesn’t throw heat so I definitely suggest it. Yes, toads do need UV light - the lack of which caused Michel’s MBD. not sure about too much calcium as I believe my powder doesn’t have d3.



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    100+ Post Member Animallover3541's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lighting questions

    Quote Originally Posted by BossFrog View Post
    Michel’s symptoms were weakness especially in his back legs, rubbery bones, reduced appetite, and jaw hanging open. My light is working well and it doesn’t throw heat so I definitely suggest it. Yes, toads do need UV light - the lack of which caused Michel’s MBD. not sure about too much calcium as I believe my powder doesn’t have d3.
    I'd only include D3 in your supplement if you don't have a source of UVB so they do not overdose. If the toad is regularly receiving UVB, then you're good without D3. Remember that UVA/UVB doesn't really travel through glass! The lid the lamp is placed on can have a big impact on how much UVB the animal receives.

    Some symptoms of severe MBD are stunted growth and deformities. These are a lot harder to deal with than the others and only occur when an animal has been deficient for a longer period of time.

    There isn't much research on exactly how much calcium and D3 different anurans need, which is really unfortunate. Imagine how much easier things would be if we did! All us keepers can do is to use what little information we have and our collective experience to create the best diet we can. Hopefully as time goes on there'll be more information available to us.
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    100+ Post Member Larry Wardog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lighting questions

    The study I shared with you describes this problem. The toads that eat the feeders that consume the gutload get the proper supplementation. The study also said you can add Reptocal by Tetrafauna for more D3.

    To add UVB use a plexiglass lid and drill holes in it for the uvb to pass through the holes to get to the toad.

    Sent from my BKL-L04 using Tapatalk

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    Default Re: Lighting questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Wardog View Post
    The study I shared with you describes this problem. The toads that eat the feeders that consume the gutload get the proper supplementation. The study also said you can add Reptocal by Tetrafauna for more D3.

    To add UVB use a plexiglass lid and drill holes in it for the uvb to pass through the holes to get to the toad.

    Sent from my BKL-L04 using Tapatalk
    I read through the study. Thank you! I have been gutloading my crickets on carrots, baby food carrots, grains, fish flakes & Zoo Med Natural Cricket Care and my Rolys on carrots, cuddlebone & potatoes. Will be looking into the Mazuri Better Bug Gutload. Currently the Reptivite I am using is w/out D3 & my light is an LED desk lamp. I have just bought a bottle of Reptivite w/D3 and I'll be receiving the UVB light by Friday. I have also been adding 2 drops of Vita-Sol to 2 cups of water for their water dish, which has Vitamin A & D3. The following is what I have observed with my four toads over the last 4 months, (I say 4 toads because I am including the development of Chanchu who passed away 10 days ago due to an impaction).

    All four toads were collected around the same time and were of the same size. All four toads were kept in the same enclosure, given the same diet, and had access to the same water dish. Chanchu and Shima had a constant growth rate and doubled in size compared to Speckles and Gama, who are considerably smaller and less active AND also spent less time soaking in the vitamin enhanced water. Chanchu & Shima seem to always be bathing and I rarely see Speckles & Gama in the water dish. I am beginning to assume that due to the lack of exposure to the vitamin enhanced water, Speckles & Gama are experiencing some sort of deficiency. Out of the four, Gama seems to be a challenge when getting him to eat what I offer. Speckles & Shima usually eat whatever I put in front of them, unless the have just shed and eaten their skin, and Chanchu was the same way. That's why I was so baffled when he started to act odd and suddenly had trouble walking, dying the following day! So... now out of the 3 remaining, Shima is the largest (which he and Gama were captured together and identical in size) and spends more time in the water bowl & eats more than the other two. Is it because of the water enhancement? Should I give Gama & Speckles mandatory soaks for a few days? Note... they are not getting D3 from the Reptivite or the lighting as of yet. I'm thinking that maybe I should hold off on starting them on the Reptivite w/D3 and just use the UVB light for awhile to see what happens. I won't have any issues with UVB penetration because my tank lid is a metal mesh and provides a lot of air flow, NO glass to prevent penetration. Given that I cannot confirm how much or how many of the dusted feeders each one eats, the best method for providing D3 would be using the light and continuing to use the Vita-Sol for water enhancement. I read your post with info and suggestions regarding the MBD issue and thought is was very thorough but I would like your opinion on the water enhancement too. Thought or suggestions??? Thanks

    P.S. - What does it mean when you get a "Reputation" notification and 8pts??? Did I do something wrong? Feel like I got written a ticket! LOL! I just don't know this forum stuff well enough!

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    100+ Post Member Larry Wardog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lighting questions

    Quote Originally Posted by ToadilyNuts4Nature View Post
    I read through the study. Thank you! I have been gutloading my crickets on carrots, baby food carrots, grains, fish flakes & Zoo Med Natural Cricket Care and my Rolys on carrots, cuddlebone & potatoes. Will be looking into the Mazuri Better Bug Gutload. Currently the Reptivite I am using is w/out D3 & my light is an LED desk lamp. I have just bought a bottle of Reptivite w/D3 and I'll be receiving the UVB light by Friday. I have also been adding 2 drops of Vita-Sol to 2 cups of water for their water dish, which has Vitamin A & D3. The following is what I have observed with my four toads over the last 4 months, (I say 4 toads because I am including the development of Chanchu who passed away 10 days ago due to an impaction).

    All four toads were collected around the same time and were of the same size. All four toads were kept in the same enclosure, given the same diet, and had access to the same water dish. Chanchu and Shima had a constant growth rate and doubled in size compared to Speckles and Gama, who are considerably smaller and less active AND also spent less time soaking in the vitamin enhanced water. Chanchu & Shima seem to always be bathing and I rarely see Speckles & Gama in the water dish. I am beginning to assume that due to the lack of exposure to the vitamin enhanced water, Speckles & Gama are experiencing some sort of deficiency. Out of the four, Gama seems to be a challenge when getting him to eat what I offer. Speckles & Shima usually eat whatever I put in front of them, unless the have just shed and eaten their skin, and Chanchu was the same way. That's why I was so baffled when he started to act odd and suddenly had trouble walking, dying the following day! So... now out of the 3 remaining, Shima is the largest (which he and Gama were captured together and identical in size) and spends more time in the water bowl & eats more than the other two. Is it because of the water enhancement? Should I give Gama & Speckles mandatory soaks for a few days? Note... they are not getting D3 from the Reptivite or the lighting as of yet. I'm thinking that maybe I should hold off on starting them on the Reptivite w/D3 and just use the UVB light for awhile to see what happens. I won't have any issues with UVB penetration because my tank lid is a metal mesh and provides a lot of air flow, NO glass to prevent penetration. Given that I cannot confirm how much or how many of the dusted feeders each one eats, the best method for providing D3 would be using the light and continuing to use the Vita-Sol for water enhancement. I read your post with info and suggestions regarding the MBD issue and thought is was very thorough but I would like your opinion on the water enhancement too. Thought or suggestions??? Thanks

    P.S. - What does it mean when you get a "Reputation" notification and 8pts??? Did I do something wrong? Feel like I got written a ticket! LOL! I just don't know this forum stuff well enough!
    I think that's good when you get that score. Don't quote me on that lol but I believe it is.

    I have never added something like that to the water so I can research it and try to get back to you. You have a great attitude towards keeping your toads so regardless on how things look the fact that you care and want to do the best you can is going to take you and your animals far. Thank you for the kind words I am happy to have helped you with the information I provided! I will have to look into the other things you use as a gutload to see what they are like ingredients wise. You can offer blueberries and strawberries to the feeders and they love to eat fruit! I just don't make it the main food for the crickets.

    As for the light I agree with you it's better to just use the light right now, and then when the water supplements are addressed by someone else or me if nobody knows, then we can figure out what else the toads should get vitamin wise.

    I think your toad who has grown the most and eats a lot might be a female. It sounds like typical female behavior and growth, but it could also be an abnormal male with a very interesting personality. I would let the other toads rest because it's winter. As long as you keep the soil moist they should be good.

    Sent from my BKL-L04 using Tapatalk

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    Default Re: Lighting questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Wardog View Post
    I think that's good when you get that score. Don't quote me on that lol but I believe it is.

    I have never added something like that to the water so I can research it and try to get back to you. You have a great attitude towards keeping your toads so regardless on how things look the fact that you care and want to do the best you can is going to take you and your animals far. Thank you for the kind words I am happy to have helped you with the information I provided! I will have to look into the other things you use as a gutload to see what they are like ingredients wise. You can offer blueberries and strawberries to the feeders and they love to eat fruit! I just don't make it the main food for the crickets.


    As for the light I agree with you it's better to just use the light right now, and then when the water supplements are addressed by someone else or me if nobody knows, then we can figure out what else the toads should get vitamin wise.

    I think your toad who has grown the most and eats a lot might be a female. It sounds like typical female behavior and growth, but it could also be an abnormal male with a very interesting personality. I would let the other toads rest because it's winter. As long as you keep the soil moist they should be good.

    Sent from my BKL-L04 using Tapatalk
    Thank you! I am quite meticulous, almost obsessive with caring for them and get nervous because I am still so new to all this regardless of all the research I have done! Shima, the largest one, I am sure is male because he chirps when handled or if one of the other toads jumps on top of him. I had moved all of them into a separate container, to try feeding them worms, and a couple times he had flipped onto his back and chirped until I turned him back over. Unless I am mistaken... females don't make any sounds at all??? But for awhile I was believing that Shima was a female until I heard the chirping.

    Thank you for checking on the water enhancement! I look forward to what you find out and appreciate any info! I can't remember where I read the suggestion to add Vita-sol to the water but I must have seen it somewhere, otherwise I would not have known to do that. But it does make sense for them to be able to absorb the nutrients through their skin via the water and the fact that Shima really enjoys his soaks and is the largest... just putting 2 and 2 together! I only add 2 drops because I don't want to overload them but I figure a little is better than nothing at all.

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    Default Re: Lighting questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Wardog View Post
    I think that's good when you get that score. Don't quote me on that lol but I believe it is.

    I have never added something like that to the water so I can research it and try to get back to you. You have a great attitude towards keeping your toads so regardless on how things look the fact that you care and want to do the best you can is going to take you and your animals far. Thank you for the kind words I am happy to have helped you with the information I provided! I will have to look into the other things you use as a gutload to see what they are like ingredients wise. You can offer blueberries and strawberries to the feeders and they love to eat fruit! I just don't make it the main food for the crickets.

    As for the light I agree with you it's better to just use the light right now, and then when the water supplements are addressed by someone else or me if nobody knows, then we can figure out what else the toads should get vitamin wise.

    I think your toad who has grown the most and eats a lot might be a female. It sounds like typical female behavior and growth, but it could also be an abnormal male with a very interesting personality. I would let the other toads rest because it's winter. As long as you keep the soil moist they should be good.

    Sent from my BKL-L04 using Tapatalk
    I found this thread from Nov. 8th 2017, which references the use of liquid bird vitamins. You had posted some comments but none referring the liquid supplementation. Not sure if this is where I got the idea from originally?? I don't know how or if I can tag/share a specific thread but you can find it if you search it...

    Thread: Nutritional question in relation to difficult eating situation for Toad

    Updated with additional Info: This is the original source regarding the utilization of Liquid Bird Vitamins, specifically for Short Tongue syndrome...

    http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatre.../#.XjwrrU3QZdg

    The following were the direct comments... to save time reading thru all the posts... I hope this is helpful information???

    January 8, 2014 at 12:43 pm
    Hi Frank,
    I was fortunate to have discovered this blog about short tongue syndrome. Ifound a small American toad in mid October of 2013. The recommended terrariumwas set up and I began feeding her a diet of small crickets and meal worms. Shewas growing nicely and everything was fine until around mid December when hertongue began to miss its target. I initially assumed that the toad haddeveloped a vision problem but then I noticed that its tongue appeared to havebecome too short to reach its prey. The problem grew worse until it sometimestook 5 attempts before she would either catch one or give up trying and justwalk away.

    It was time to consider a reptile vet but then I got the idea toGoogle the problem to see if there was the chance of anything being posted theinternet. Lo and behold your link popped up. Eureka! I dashed out to Petco andbought the Reptivite brand of multi-vitamins with calcium. The powder made theprey even more difficult for the tongue to grab onto, so I additionally beganputting some liquid bird vitamins in the water bath as well (the Reptivitedidn’t dissolve well in water). There was no improvement for the first week butthen Toady’s catching ability slowly started to get better. It took about 3weeks before she began to make occasional one-shot catches, but as of thismorning, she achieved 3 in a row. Recovery seems to be at hand and thosevitamins will remain a regular supplement to her diet.
    I want to thank you for your elucidating article and also thereaders who contributed their personal experiences to your blog.
    My best to you,
    Dave


    Frank Indiviglio
    January 8, 2014 at 12:51 pm
    Hello Dave,
    Thanks very much for the kind words and theuseful observation. Back before reptile vitamins were available, we used birdvitamins in zoos, Avitron was the standard then, still used for some herps byvets today; your input will be very useful…I’ll save and pass along, thanks.Please let me know what brand you used when time permits.
    I’d avoid mealworms, other than newly-moltedgrubs; poor CA: Phosphorous profile and linked to digestive problems,blockages, etc. Vary the diet as much as possible; and be sure to feed thecrickets well before use. Please see Frog/Toad Diets(link to Part I in text)and Live Food Care andlet me know if you need anything, best, Frank


    Dave

    January 8, 2014 at 9:54 pm
    Hello again Frank,
    The liquid bird vitamins I’m using in my toad’s water is Vita-Sol by Eight inOne Pet Products. I did read the frog/toad diet on the link you kindlyprovided. I actually did begin feeding my toad insects from the same forestpreserve I found her in. So for the first few weeks she was fed roli polis,slugs, and small earthworms I gathered from under rocks and dead wood. When thecold weather set in, and its been a brutal winter here in the Chicago area, Ihad to resort to the crickets and meal worms available in pet stores. I willendeavor to locate a source of earthworms, perhaps from a bait shop, untilspring arrives and I can provide her with a greater variety of bugs.
    Thanks again for your helpful suggestions,
    Dave

    Last edited by ToadilyNuts4Nature; February 6th, 2020 at 09:43 AM. Reason: Additional Info

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