Opinions needed on medical issue

[toadfriend]

"The reason I don't use D and A dust everytime is to give them a chance to process what is already in their system. They get both two out of every three feedings. Herptivite has beta-carotene (which they maybe can use to turn into A) and no D either as that is in their calcium powder. Both A and D can build up to toxic levels so a little break is good.

Here's the long version as explained by Ed.

"mixed, the fat soluable vitamins will catalyze a more rapid oxidation of each other (which is why Rep-Cal and Herptevite are seperate with one haveing A and E and the other D3) than if they are kept seperate (however they still will oxidize which is why the recommendation is to replace the supplements every six months or so).

However in the digestive tract, A, D3 and E compete for uptake by the animal. This is why the ratio of the vitamins in the supplement should be somewhere close to 10 to 1 to 0.1 (A to D3 to E) as large variations outside of this range can cause deficiencies of one or more of the vitamins (this was (may still be) the most common cause of "MBD" (metabolic bone disease which is actually a group of diseases that present the same symptoms by disrupting calcium metabolism) when the diet contained excessive vitamin A). I have a whopping headache so I am not going to check the labels but you need to make sure that if you are mixing the two before dusting that the resulting ratio of A3 and E are correct which may cause you to change the amount you mix. By alternating the dustings with the feedings, there is less issue with uptake of the fat soluable vitamins as the frog can store the excess in the fat, liver and skin (depending on the vitamin)..

This also allows for alternation of calcium supplementation as excessive calcium can also cause conditional deficiencies and in extreme excess and a high fat diet cause the deposition of calcium salts in the digestive tract. "

[Larry Wardog]

"The reason I don't use D and A dust everytime is to give them a chance to process what is already in their system. They get both two out of every three feedings. Herptivite has beta-carotene (which they maybe can use to turn into A) and no D either as that is in their calcium powder. Both A and D can build up to toxic levels so a little break is good.

Here's the long version as explained by Ed.

"mixed, the fat soluable vitamins will catalyze a more rapid oxidation of each other (which is why Rep-Cal and Herptevite are seperate with one haveing A and E and the other D3) than if they are kept seperate (however they still will oxidize which is why the recommendation is to replace the supplements every six months or so).

However in the digestive tract, A, D3 and E compete for uptake by the animal. This is why the ratio of the vitamins in the supplement should be somewhere close to 10 to 1 to 0.1 (A to D3 to E) as large variations outside of this range can cause deficiencies of one or more of the vitamins (this was (may still be) the most common cause of "MBD" (metabolic bone disease which is actually a group of diseases that present the same symptoms by disrupting calcium metabolism) when the diet contained excessive vitamin A). I have a whopping headache so I am not going to check the labels but you need to make sure that if you are mixing the two before dusting that the resulting ratio of A3 and E are correct which may cause you to change the amount you mix. By alternating the dustings with the feedings, there is less issue with uptake of the fat soluable vitamins as the frog can store the excess in the fat, liver and skin (depending on the vitamin)..

This also allows for alternation of calcium supplementation as excessive calcium can also cause conditional deficiencies and in extreme excess and a high fat diet cause the deposition of calcium salts in the digestive tract. "

This was about the American Toad though that's why I was trying to comment on the specific animal.

Your experience is welcome to share but if it's with another species of toad (not east of Mississippi River) then it's going to be different. Most of the toads except the invasive Cane toad have specific care just like the toad you keep.

As for the feeding program feeding just one feeder just sounds odd and I've gotten most of my former knowledge about Eastern species from Frank Indiviglio. He kept all these animals and worked in the Bronx zoo. He has a lot of good articles on American Toads and I can edit this when I get done to add some in so you can read them. Captive worms could possibly work but I have yet to get any without a parasite and I am attempting to breed and replenish my local area with American toads so I can't afford anymore parasites for these toads.

I am pursuing a career as being a researcher of the northeast frogs and toads and have been talking to some very great people myself so there is no need for competition.

As for mice American toads may eat field mice and I've said they would many times, but that doesn't mean they should if it's not necessary like in captivity. They are trying to survive in the wild and will take chances that sometimes doesn't workout. Mice are a serious gamble especially for this species. Tarantulas have hairs they can shoot and can really harm a toad. I know toads eat spiders but again it's not really necessary in captivity to try this.

As for the Gutload vs Supplements

I got my information from a vet who is one of a handful in the country. She works with Ripley's aquarium, a zoo in Tennessee and others. I understand what other herpers may have said but when it's your toads and you tried supplements and your toads are dying and then you switch to gutload and they are still here it wouldn't be a debate if you actually witnessed this. I have and spent over $4k getting my toads healthy from parasites. I actually two years ago wouldn't have recommended gutloads to keepers on here but I had to humble myself and listen to the vet. She saved my toads and they are incredible ever since. Part is the diet. I am using my testimony that this can save toads lives even if it's the northeast toads only and the other frogs species. I'm not telling you how to care for your animals I am just trying to save this toads life and recommend something that saved my toads lives.

I have been on this forum for years and helped gray tree frog keepers, whites tree frog keepers, leopard frog keepers, and American toad keepers and I have had some aggressive moments and some very humbling ones. I really care and want to help the people on this forum and I am willing to admit when I'm wrong. Every time I tell someone about the Gutload I recommend it's humbling myself because I thought I knew exactly how to keep the northeast frogs and toads with specific supplements and etc. I almost lost my toads and ever since then I've been willing to accept changes and listen more then anything else. I just want to help keepers of this species to have the healthiest and happiest toads.

Frank Indiviglio

http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatre.../#.W8wcd1MpA0M

http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatre...ecies-part-ii/

http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatre...pecies-part-i/


http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatre...blebee-mimics/

http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatre.../#.W8wfA1MpA0M

[toadfriend]

I totally respect your experience and good intentions. Gut-loading feeders is not a bad thing. It's a good thing. I just think supplements are good too. I've had my say. Folks can read the links and make up their own minds.

[butchblues]

I appreciate hearing everyone's advice and experiences! I love my 3 little toadlets to death and want to do what's right for them to live a long and healthy life. Information from multiple sources definitely helps me to make informed decisions.

[Larry Wardog]

I totally respect your experience and good intentions. Gut-loading feeders is not a bad thing. It's a good thing. I just think supplements are good too. I've had my say. Folks can read the links and make up their own minds.

I don't mean to come off as harsh in any way to you. I look forward to your input and I was in no way trying to offend you. I apologise if I did.

After looking at your sources and my study I came to this conclusion. I believe the gutload is the best decision. I think that the tetrafauna repto cal is good to use as it was also recorded from my study and there was referencing of other supplements in all the sources. You can use this and gutload. I also think adding in things like the crested gecko diet and etc from repashy to the gutload is very beneficial. Instead of dusting this stuff (supplements) can be added to the gutload like the repto cal and the crickets could already have both in their system. I think the common ground I can accept is you can use your supplements and add them to the gutload as food for the crickets. That way it's still a common ground and both have a place.

I have to say I actually do use repto cal in my gutload and add fish food and birdseed sometimes. It makes the crickets eat more and they have the nutrition already inside them. I of course provide calcium gel as water so they don't dehydrate.

Hopefully this response can help others with this question.

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