New Colorado River Toads....(20!!!)

[Morbidph8]

To the user who gave me bad rep and said "Doesn't effect you, toads are not endangered, minding your own business might be a good idea." Yes it does effect me because as a citizen of AZ I have a obligation to stop the illegal taking of wildlife from my state. It's smucks like you who will make them endangered. Theres laws in place for a reason. Maybe you don't care about the law, but I do. BTW I'm forwarding this topic to Arizona Fish & Game. Ill let them deal with it. Have fun when your house is raided.

[Jeff Kennedy]

Alright, now let me get my rep hit a little bit. It's ok because I feel like this needs to be addressed.

(V)orbidPh8: "I'm sorry if I'm being a douche". Those were your words but I couldn't agree with you more. You're acting like an idiot. I think the entire situation has been made clear through this thread but since it hasn't sunk into your skull yet, let me spell it out for you again. You are probably just so deep into your law studies that you overlooked some things. I bought this large group of toads under the impression that they were captive bred. I was advised by the seller that he raised them himself from eggs. It was not until they showed up at my door, malnourished and parasite ridden that I discovered that the majority was raised from a strain of wild caught eggs that he had harvested. In a sense they are captive bred but I'm not going to argue that issue. The issue is that we bought a large lot because we like them and wanted to have several of them in our own collection. We wanted to allow them to grow and then keep the biggest ones for ourselves and sell off the others. Obviously we are in no position to take on (29) full grown toads. You can find these toads for sale quite often and a lot of the popular online vendors offer them only for a much higher price. Now if I was the one going in to AZ and "poaching" them like you say just to turn around and re-sale them, then I get that issue. I, however am not. As it stands right now I am probably just about breaking even on the toads. I have the original purchase price on them all (which wasn't cheap), a couple hundred in dubia roaches and crickets that was required to bulk them back up as well as vet bills on (3) of them because I couldn't find any local vets that would prescribe the drugs used to treat the toads for parasites without them being seen. The way I see it is had it not been for me, the original owner would have continued not being able to feed these guys and they all would have just withered away and died. Is that the fate that you think your native toads deserved since you care about them so much?? Try to open up your mind a little bit and see the bigger picture. That is that we did a good thing by rescuing these guys, rehabilitating them and giving them a good home. Now they are healthy and happy and well cared for. Who cares if we now have a couple healthy specimens that we can pass on to other hobbyists to enjoy? Go ahead and do whatever you feel is necessary. Forward this to whomever you want. I am so tired of keyboard bully's that still live with their parents, wanting to get online and screw with good people just because they have nothing better to do. Go back to lurking as you said in your first post because this community was better without you. As far as the negative mark on your rep, it wasn't me. I just did log on and see your ignorance firsthand for myself. Sorry to John, all the moderators, members etc. I don't plan on getting all grade school with this but I felt that I had the right to defend myself under such an attack. My apologies in advance.

[Morbidph8]

The fact of the matter is you broke the law. It does not matter if you didn't know about them being illegally poached. You paid for illegally taken wildlife. You then had a hand in the interstate transport of said illegal wildlife. Then you want to sell the illegally taken wildlife. Regardless of your intentions to rehabilitate them and take care of them. You still broke the law. I'm sick and tired of people like you that have a hand in the illegal take of wildlife in my state. Because of people like you the wild numbers will dwindle and they will end up being protected. So people who could legally own one would not be able to. I like how you call me a "keyboard bully" but yet you threatened me. I was being polite about the whole thing. Until you threatened me. Anyways it doesn't matter I contacted AZF&G they took the info and said they would look into it. Poaching of reptiles and amphibians is big bussiness in AZ and it needs to stop. If you really cared about the toads you wouldn't be apart of the illegal trade of AZ wildlife. Like I said AZF&G is involed so I no longer need to be. Have fun with your toads.

[Jeff Kennedy]

Wow...You still don't get it do you? Anyways why don't you quote me the "threat" that I made to you?

[Jeff Kennedy]

And as far as the Arizona Game & Fish Dept. They are closed today because of the holiday as I have already tried to contact them myself. So I guess you made up the whole part about them telling you that they was going to check in to it. I'll be sure to follow up with them tomorrow though via telephone.

[SethD]

The fact of the matter is you broke the law. It does not matter if you didn't know about them being illegally poached. You paid for illegally taken wildlife. You then had a hand in the interstate transport of said illegal wildlife. Then you want to sell the illegally taken wildlife.[COLOR=black] Regardless of your intentions to rehabilitate them and take care of them. You still broke the law. I'm sick and tired of people like you that have a hand in the illegal take of wildlife in my state. Because of people like you the wild numbers will dwindle and they will end up being protected. .... Poaching of reptiles and amphibians is big bussiness in AZ and it needs to stop.

For the record I have never owned Colorado river toads and have no plans to get any because I know very well that only a very small portion of the ones in the trade were CB or obtained legally. I don't need the potential for that kind of headache. That said Arizona's blanket prohibition on any form of trade in any of their native wildlife is not very realistic. I have seen these toads consistently available on a seasonal basis since at least since the early 90's when I started following the reptile/amphibian trade. There is no way Arizona is going to be able to put a stop to trade in a common and popular species that can bring a hundred dollars each outside the state. An attempt to do so is simply wasting the states time and resources. Bust a few people, make a lot of noise, but in reality accomplish nothing. To many Arizona residents and out of state collectors are not going to see a problem with making a quick buck on a species that is common and almost a pest(due to issues with dogs) in portions of its range. Arizona would do much better to regulate the trade in reptile and amphibian wildlife and treat it as a renewable resource. They need to treat collecting for the pet trade like they treat hunting and fishing. licenses to collect, bag limits, and population monitoring to insure the species can handle it. That would be a more effective way of doing things than totally banning commercial collection and any native species leaving the state.

[Jeff Kennedy]

Hey Seth, I appreciate your support. Like I mentioned there is no need for Morbid or whatever his name is to threaten me with contacting them because I am already going to do so tomorrow. Hell there is no way to even prove any origination on any of them. Since discovering weeks ago that they were in fact not CB, I emailed the seller and he advised me that they were from a clutch of eggs that he had harvested either in New Mexico or Arizona. They were then hatched out in the sellers state of MS and raised there from tads on. I will go ahead and contact AZ just because this guy is raising so much hell. It is very discouraging that I am NOT a frog dealer. Frog's are a hobby and passion for Ella and I. We have busted our ***'s since receiving these toads, spent a whole lot of money rehabilitating them and the payoff has been awesome. To know that you saved at least (18) of these guys from near death has been very rewarding. The majority arrived drastically underweight and had sores on them from poor husbandry. Now they look fantastic and all of the sores healed with no signs that they were ever even there. This feels good so we log on and share the experience with everyone and then have one bad apple ruin the whole "feel good" feeling. That is fine though. He thinks that he is scaring me by saying that he's contacting gaming officials and that they are going to raid my house but it isn't working. I will be calling them first thing in the morning to discuss the matter with the actual authorities. Now my curiosity is up and I want answers for myself.

[Malachi]

Sucks there are always trolls on forums....

Your toads look great, SOOO tempting to buy.

[Mordecai]

Doesn't it though! Drats!!
Thanks though Malachi! They are really awesome, and have made a complete turn around! Happy, healthy little fellers!

[Morbidph8]

Arizona would do much better to regulate the trade in reptile and amphibian wildlife and treat it as a renewable resource. They need to treat collecting for the pet trade like they treat hunting and fishing. licenses to collect, bag limits, and population monitoring to insure the species can handle it. That would be a more effective way of doing things than totally banning commercial collection and any native species leaving the state.

I agree but until that happens the fact is its currently illegal. Here some more info for yea

It should also be noted that none of the states in which B. alvarius is (or was) indigenous - California, Arizona, and New Mexico - legally allow a person to remove the toad from the state. For example, the Arizona Department of Game and Fish is clear about the law in Arizona: "An individual shall not... export any live wildlife from the state; 3. Transport, possess, offer for sale, sell, sell as live bait, trade, give away, purchase, rent, lease, display, exhibit, propagate... within the state..."[6]
In California, B. alvarius has been designated as "endangered" and possession of this toad is illegal. "It is unlawful to capture, collect, intentionally kill or injure, possess, purchase, propagate, sell, transport, import or export any native reptile or amphibian, or part thereof..."[7]
In New Mexico, this toad is listed as "threatened" and, again, taking B. alvarius is unlawful.[8][9]
Colorado River Toad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pretty plain to see your breaking the law. BTW I already quoted your threat it's a page back. Wow now I'm a troll because I stand up for my states laws. Nice I bet you just want to just get high off the toads. See I can throw around baseless accusations as well. BTW Operation Game Thief ran by AZF&G is open 24/7. Poachers don't take holidays. Wow really can't believe people on this forum condone poaching. Nice

[Jeff Kennedy]

Are you talking about the "Report a Violation" line? If so, that was the one that I called. They are closed for the holiday. What number are you calling? I'd be happy to call and speak with them.

[John]

You guys could have had a constructive conversation about this but instead it has degenerated into a back-and-forth argument and name calling. Let's be clear, as things stand, the worst that could happen to Jeff would be confiscation of the animals and an outside chance of a fine - there's a Lacey Act violation in there. Since the original advert was for CB, I don't think Jeff has much to worry about. Now, selling them on is a bigger issue - that could certainly lead to trouble.

Rather than berating each other, you should be reporting the original seller - give their full name and address to USFW and Arizona's equivalent.

Regarding the toads themselves, at this point they should not be released because of potential spread of diseases they may have picked up since entering captivity. If they are confiscated, they will either be destroyed or given to another local keeper. No one wins.

Now please be civil.