New Colorado River Toads....(20!!!)

[Jeff Kennedy]

Hey John,

Just purchased the panacur from a local vet. It is the canine form and contains (3) 1-gram packets. He advised that he thought this and the flagyl might be too harsh on them. I am concerned about the dosage. I know once a week for the next 2-3 weeks so is it ok to just dust the food items? I am concerned I could overmedicate if too much powder is on one bug or a particular frog eats too many bugs with it on there. Am I overreacting here?

[John]

He collects them himself from areas of Arizona and New Mexico where it is legal and he HAS in fact raised the majority from eggs, however they were eggs that he collected as well.

It is totally illegal to collect them in New Mexico, and it is only legal to collect a handful in Arizona under a state fishing license and under no circumstances can they be brought out of the state - that is illegal. Not only is that a violation of the state laws of Arizona and New Mexico, but it is a federal offense under the Lacey Act. USFW would love his contact information.

Just purchased the panacur from a local vet. It is the canine form and contains (3) 1-gram packets. He advised that he thought this and the flagyl might be too harsh on them. I am concerned about the dosage. I know once a week for the next 2-3 weeks so is it ok to just dust the food items? I am concerned I could overmedicate if too much powder is on one bug or a particular frog eats too many bugs with it on there. Am I overreacting here?

You need to dose them as I said earlier - 50 mg per kg of toad weight (so at a guess I would say 1-5 mg per toad, depending on their weights). Dose them by dusting food items. You definitely don't want to dose much more than this and you certainly don't want to under dose them.

[Jeff Kennedy]

That's interesting. Well like I said before, I was under the assumption that they were captive bred until after I received them. It was after receiving them that I learned how they was collected. I never had a need to check on individual state laws as I assumed that he wouldn't do anything that was illegal just to sell some toads. I'll pass that info on to him just to make sure that he is aware of it in the event that he goes out to collect in the future. So far our guys are responding well to treatment. We are just a couple of days in and have fattened them up significantly. We have got them to adjust to the dubia nicely and hopefully they will take to the panacur as well. Thanks for the info John!

[Morbidph8]

That's interesting. Well like I said before, I was under the assumption that they were captive bred until after I received them. It was after receiving them that I learned how they was collected. I never had a need to check on individual state laws as I assumed that he wouldn't do anything that was illegal just to sell some toads. I'll pass that info on to him just to make sure that he is aware of it in the event that he goes out to collect in the future. So far our guys are responding well to treatment. We are just a couple of days in and have fattened them up significantly. We have got them to adjust to the dubia nicely and hopefully they will take to the panacur as well. Thanks for the info John!

Hi ive been lurking for a while. It bugs me when people get wild caught Sonoran desert toads. While they may be found in CA, and NM. Most of the WC Colorado Toad come from Arizona. In AZ with a valid fishing license you can take a bag limit of certain wild amphibians. The law also states that AZ Native wildlife, cannot be sold, bought, or traded. They can only be given away. It's also against the law to take AZ Native wildlife outside of the state. Now Im not saying you guys did anything wrong. I live in AZ so it bugs me when I see kingsnake ads with sonorans for sale. Knowing they are illegaly been taken away from my state. Other than that. Your pics of your toads are great. Sonoran are one of my favorite toads. I currently have a Great Plaines toad I caught in my backyard. It's mansoon season now. Breeding season! Theres about 4 different toad species near me. I'm outside of the range for Sonorans though. I'm hoping I can find another Red Spotted Toad this year.

Sonoran Desert Toad (Incilius alvarius) - Amphibians of Arizona
Arizona Reptile/Amphibian Hunting Regulations
http://www.azgfd.gov/pdfs/h_f/regula...eAmphibian.pdf

[Jeff Kennedy]

We will be selling a small quantity of these in about a week. They have all been rehabilitated and treated for parasites. It has already cost us several hundred dollars in roaches and crickets to get these fella's back on track but it has been totally worth it. These are probably some of the most endearing frogs that I have ever owned. They act like dogs. It only took about a week for them to start recognizing me as a food source and now, every morning, they are lined up in front of there tanks waiting patiently for their turn to eat. We have (4) 20 gallon long tanks all in a row so you can imagine what this looks like. It is really going to be tough letting some of these guys go but we knew going in that we couldn't keep them all. So if you are interested, send me a PM and we can discuss the details. We are only releasing a select few at this time.

[Mordecai]

The "hippies" trying to line up.



The "hippies" perfecting the line up, and the "newbies",... well they try!

[Morbidph8]

Wow they sure look great. I would love a couple, that is if you can prove they where not poached from AZ. It would be illegal to pay for an AZ native of course. Oh wait you already stated they where illegally taken from AZ. So yea have fun in dealing with illegally taken wildlife. FYI anybody who buys these would be also be breaking the law. Better hope USFW doesn't come knocking at your door. I'm sorry if I'm being a douche but I'm not the one poaching wildlife from my state.

[Eel Noob]

Great pix and animals.

[Greg M]

I followed this thread with great interest since I would love to have a Colorado River/Sonoran desert toad. Jeff, did you get some help resolving this issue? I ask this out of genuine interest and not a desire to create any trouble.

[tadpole]

sorry to say, this is a sad thread for me to read. after the first page i fired off an email to an administrator because what i'd read had troubled me. my considerations were the large number of animals first being aquired, how they would be housed, and finally offered for sale from this very thread. i could not understand what appeared to be an such eccentric predilection for owning all these toads, and how a person in possession of his senses could expect to even profit from such an endeavor, considering what it takes in time and materials to raise toads to maturity. and that's on top of the fact the animals appeared to have been illegally collected. i am totally against the exploitation of live animals, especially wild populations, for profit, accent on exploitation. oth, i don't see anything wrong with offering well cared for animals in reasonable quantities offered for sale to interested parties.

at the time i wrote the email to administrator john, and being new to this site, i had only read the first page of the thread, and thought that's as far as it had gone. i was reading back posts and discovered there were 2 more pages of responses i had missed. looks like the cat got out of the bag, so i don't feel so self-concious about publishing my opinion here now.

one fact i wasn't aware of is that this is the toad that people use to get high. man, that just poisons this whole thing for me. here's a link you can read up on why people want this toad, and why it goes for $165:
Legal Weed|Legal Bud|Legal Ways To Get High - Bufo Alvarius/Colorado River Toad/Sonoran Desert Toad

just a guess, but i'd say the only people buying this animal are not planning on having a happy healthy pet. scroll down that link and read what people are doing to this animal for their pleasure. the one description is apparently just some guys in a pet store surreptitiously try to get the venom out of the toad before the manager catches them. these animals are going to be sold into a god knows what kind of a life for drug users. talk about animal exploitation. uuhhgg. sorry guys but that's how i see it, and you will not convince me otherwise with your glib descriptions about what a wonderful pet this makes. and now this website by advertising these animals for sale is party to everything dark about about the pet trade.

[Greg M]

I agree that, regrettably, some Colorado River toads are bought by people desiring to get high (or whatever the proper term is). I personally don't believe that Jeff purchased these toads with a desire to sell them to people who use them for such purposes. Let me just say, for the record, that I am cautiously interested in owning a legally-obtained Colorado River Toad, because they are reported to make interesting pets, and certainly not for the purposes of getting stoned, end of story. I imagine there are many here, including John, that feel the same way. John's pic of a female Colorado River toad is just stunning! For me, the illicit activities associated with this toad are a real impediment to owning a marvelous pet.

[Kurt]

I do keep this species and have never licked it, nor do I ever intend to. I find the thought revolting. Also, the same can be said of John.
It's not really fair to link all people that keep or are interested in this species together as junkies. Sure, there are idiots out there who want them for that purpose, but the ones I have met have all been stupid, burned-out teenagers and no self-respecting vendor would ever sell them anything, never mind a live animal.
Also, it is quite legal to possess the toad, it is illegal to harvest or possess the toxins. At that point its a controlled substance. It can also be deadly if taken.

Jeff, that was a long post and I actually read it. Lately, when I see a long post I don't read it as I have too many things to get to, but I read this one.

[Rabbit87]

My boyfriend and I have 5 Colorodo River Toads that we got from Jeff a few months ago. They arrived in good health. They just needed some water and food, which was expected. They adapted to their new environment well and seemed very happy. Since then, we have done many changes. Our toads seem happier then ever. When we first got them we had thought about them possibly not being CB, but that did not stop us from keeping them or loving them. If we had not adopted them, someone somewhere would have and who knows if they would treat them as well as we do. We do not have any bad feelings about keeping our toads. We have them in a 75 gallon tank with a large water dish that they all fit into comfortably and a big half log for them to burrow under. They are all very healthy and getting big!

Ella- I was just wondering what substrate you are using for your toads? Once they got a little bigger, close to full grown did they start to eat less? Also, do your toads jump around the tank at their reflection in the glass or at the lid? Ours do. lol Its really funny and cute Well, hope your toads are doing great! Can't wait for your reply! Take care.

[Jeff Kennedy]

Hi Misty,

Thanks so much for the update and even more for the pics!!! When you sent the pics last night, Ella and I flipped through them a couple of times and just smiled. It makes us very happy to know that they are receiving the same TLC that they were receiving with us. The whole River Toad debacle has been an unfortunate chain of events for us, personally and financially. The silver lining in it is people like yourself whom have stepped up for the shear love of the species and given them a loving home. We are happy to say that the majority of the group have been adopted out to loving enthusiasts such as yourself whom will continue to offer the same care in which we were offering. As far as the eating habits, yes it will slow as they age but these guys always seem to be eager eaters. It is when they are full grown and less active that they will pack on those extra pounds and really start to become nice display pieces (in my opinion). As far as their zany behavior? Yes, that is just them being them. When it is feeding time, Ella and I will actually laugh out loud at the way in which they will smack each other in the face with their tongues if the other toad beats them to the cricket or roach. Keep up the good work and again, Thanks for loving them!

[Rabbit87]

Hey guys! You are more then welcome! We really love these guys and want to give them the best home we can provide Erik is already planning to build them a bigger home out of plexi glass and possibly add a water side with a water filtration system and everything. We are still doing our research to see if the ideas we have will work, but we are pretty sure it will! We have hundreds of photos lol so we will definitely be posting more soon! They are getting soo big and fat, it's the cutest thing! We are glad that things are settling and they're all going to good homes Sure we will be in touch again in the future. Take care guys & Thanks again!!

-Misty & Erik

[Digital]

I just want to throw my 2 cents in, I don't mean to offend anyone, with this. But honestly, if you get the little red flags. Don't you think you should hold off on buying from that seller. I'm new to the frog/toad world. But I been breeding other animals for quite a while now. Wouldn't it be easier to see if anyone has bought from the person your plaining to order from. Like see what other people experience was with him. I understand that no one wants to pay lot's of $$$ to get sick animals. So why not do some research ahead of time and then order. I'm not trying to offended anyone here and I understand some people have to learn from their mistakes, but to me when it involves lots of money to buy them and then have to spend more getting back to health. I would rethink things and really be on the look out for the little red flags when ordering from someone.

[Kurt]

It is totally illegal to collect them in New Mexico, and it is only legal to collect a handful in Arizona under a state fishing license and under no circumstances can they be brought out of the state - that is illegal. Not only is that a violation of the state laws of Arizona and New Mexico, but it is a federal offense under the Lacey Act. USFW would love his contact information.


You need to dose them as I said earlier - 50 mg per kg of toad weight (so at a guess I would say 1-5 mg per toad, depending on their weights). Dose them by dusting food items. You definitely don't want to dose much more than this and you certainly don't want to under dose them.

The problem with dusting is you run the risk of underdosing and producing drug resitance in the target parasite. The proper way to administer fenbendazole and metronidazole is orally and this can be done with a blunt-ended syringe, which you should be able to get from your vet. With both drugs there is a little bit of wiggle room in overdosing, so no worries unless you go nuts with dosing.

[Deku]

The problem with dusting is you run the risk of underdosing and producing drug resitance in the target parasite. The proper way to administer fenbendazole and metronidazole is orally and this can be done with a blunt-ended syringe, which you should be able to get from your vet. With both drugs there is a little bit of wiggle room in overdosing, so no worries unless you go nuts with dosing.

I was confused about the panacur when he mentioned it. Like what if he overdosed or underdosed? So it seems easier to do it by syringe.
Iam curious is there a way to treat for parasites with injections or something?

[Mordecai]

We like out toads fat! The river toads have done a 180 when it comes to eating dubias. They have adjusted very well to the gut loaded roaches and gobble them up as soon as they hit the ground. I think that after they became more acquainted with their surroundings and settled in, they feel much more comfortable eating.
The "hippies" (a tank with 6 extremely laid back toads) even line up when they see us walk by, anticipating the roach rainfall.





These guys are doing so great now, and we couldn't be happier!!!

[Diogo Juliao]

I'm so jealous! I love Bufo alvarius and you've got quite a nice group!
Really nice, congrats