New Colorado River Toads....(20!!!)

[Morbidph8]

The fact of the matter is you broke the law. It does not matter if you didn't know about them being illegally poached. You paid for illegally taken wildlife. You then had a hand in the interstate transport of said illegal wildlife. Then you want to sell the illegally taken wildlife. Regardless of your intentions to rehabilitate them and take care of them. You still broke the law. I'm sick and tired of people like you that have a hand in the illegal take of wildlife in my state. Because of people like you the wild numbers will dwindle and they will end up being protected. So people who could legally own one would not be able to. I like how you call me a "keyboard bully" but yet you threatened me. I was being polite about the whole thing. Until you threatened me. Anyways it doesn't matter I contacted AZF&G they took the info and said they would look into it. Poaching of reptiles and amphibians is big bussiness in AZ and it needs to stop. If you really cared about the toads you wouldn't be apart of the illegal trade of AZ wildlife. Like I said AZF&G is involed so I no longer need to be. Have fun with your toads.

[Jeff Kennedy]

Wow...You still don't get it do you? Anyways why don't you quote me the "threat" that I made to you?

[Jeff Kennedy]

And as far as the Arizona Game & Fish Dept. They are closed today because of the holiday as I have already tried to contact them myself. So I guess you made up the whole part about them telling you that they was going to check in to it. I'll be sure to follow up with them tomorrow though via telephone.

[SethD]

The fact of the matter is you broke the law. It does not matter if you didn't know about them being illegally poached. You paid for illegally taken wildlife. You then had a hand in the interstate transport of said illegal wildlife. Then you want to sell the illegally taken wildlife.[COLOR=black] Regardless of your intentions to rehabilitate them and take care of them. You still broke the law. I'm sick and tired of people like you that have a hand in the illegal take of wildlife in my state. Because of people like you the wild numbers will dwindle and they will end up being protected. .... Poaching of reptiles and amphibians is big bussiness in AZ and it needs to stop.

For the record I have never owned Colorado river toads and have no plans to get any because I know very well that only a very small portion of the ones in the trade were CB or obtained legally. I don't need the potential for that kind of headache. That said Arizona's blanket prohibition on any form of trade in any of their native wildlife is not very realistic. I have seen these toads consistently available on a seasonal basis since at least since the early 90's when I started following the reptile/amphibian trade. There is no way Arizona is going to be able to put a stop to trade in a common and popular species that can bring a hundred dollars each outside the state. An attempt to do so is simply wasting the states time and resources. Bust a few people, make a lot of noise, but in reality accomplish nothing. To many Arizona residents and out of state collectors are not going to see a problem with making a quick buck on a species that is common and almost a pest(due to issues with dogs) in portions of its range. Arizona would do much better to regulate the trade in reptile and amphibian wildlife and treat it as a renewable resource. They need to treat collecting for the pet trade like they treat hunting and fishing. licenses to collect, bag limits, and population monitoring to insure the species can handle it. That would be a more effective way of doing things than totally banning commercial collection and any native species leaving the state.

[Jeff Kennedy]

Hey Seth, I appreciate your support. Like I mentioned there is no need for Morbid or whatever his name is to threaten me with contacting them because I am already going to do so tomorrow. Hell there is no way to even prove any origination on any of them. Since discovering weeks ago that they were in fact not CB, I emailed the seller and he advised me that they were from a clutch of eggs that he had harvested either in New Mexico or Arizona. They were then hatched out in the sellers state of MS and raised there from tads on. I will go ahead and contact AZ just because this guy is raising so much hell. It is very discouraging that I am NOT a frog dealer. Frog's are a hobby and passion for Ella and I. We have busted our ***'s since receiving these toads, spent a whole lot of money rehabilitating them and the payoff has been awesome. To know that you saved at least (18) of these guys from near death has been very rewarding. The majority arrived drastically underweight and had sores on them from poor husbandry. Now they look fantastic and all of the sores healed with no signs that they were ever even there. This feels good so we log on and share the experience with everyone and then have one bad apple ruin the whole "feel good" feeling. That is fine though. He thinks that he is scaring me by saying that he's contacting gaming officials and that they are going to raid my house but it isn't working. I will be calling them first thing in the morning to discuss the matter with the actual authorities. Now my curiosity is up and I want answers for myself.

[Malachi]

Sucks there are always trolls on forums....

Your toads look great, SOOO tempting to buy.

[Mordecai]

Doesn't it though! Drats!!
Thanks though Malachi! They are really awesome, and have made a complete turn around! Happy, healthy little fellers!

[Morbidph8]

Arizona would do much better to regulate the trade in reptile and amphibian wildlife and treat it as a renewable resource. They need to treat collecting for the pet trade like they treat hunting and fishing. licenses to collect, bag limits, and population monitoring to insure the species can handle it. That would be a more effective way of doing things than totally banning commercial collection and any native species leaving the state.

I agree but until that happens the fact is its currently illegal. Here some more info for yea

It should also be noted that none of the states in which B. alvarius is (or was) indigenous - California, Arizona, and New Mexico - legally allow a person to remove the toad from the state. For example, the Arizona Department of Game and Fish is clear about the law in Arizona: "An individual shall not... export any live wildlife from the state; 3. Transport, possess, offer for sale, sell, sell as live bait, trade, give away, purchase, rent, lease, display, exhibit, propagate... within the state..."[6]
In California, B. alvarius has been designated as "endangered" and possession of this toad is illegal. "It is unlawful to capture, collect, intentionally kill or injure, possess, purchase, propagate, sell, transport, import or export any native reptile or amphibian, or part thereof..."[7]
In New Mexico, this toad is listed as "threatened" and, again, taking B. alvarius is unlawful.[8][9]
Colorado River Toad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pretty plain to see your breaking the law. BTW I already quoted your threat it's a page back. Wow now I'm a troll because I stand up for my states laws. Nice I bet you just want to just get high off the toads. See I can throw around baseless accusations as well. BTW Operation Game Thief ran by AZF&G is open 24/7. Poachers don't take holidays. Wow really can't believe people on this forum condone poaching. Nice

[Jeff Kennedy]

Are you talking about the "Report a Violation" line? If so, that was the one that I called. They are closed for the holiday. What number are you calling? I'd be happy to call and speak with them.

[John]

You guys could have had a constructive conversation about this but instead it has degenerated into a back-and-forth argument and name calling. Let's be clear, as things stand, the worst that could happen to Jeff would be confiscation of the animals and an outside chance of a fine - there's a Lacey Act violation in there. Since the original advert was for CB, I don't think Jeff has much to worry about. Now, selling them on is a bigger issue - that could certainly lead to trouble.

Rather than berating each other, you should be reporting the original seller - give their full name and address to USFW and Arizona's equivalent.

Regarding the toads themselves, at this point they should not be released because of potential spread of diseases they may have picked up since entering captivity. If they are confiscated, they will either be destroyed or given to another local keeper. No one wins.

Now please be civil.

[Jeff Kennedy]

This whole issue has me completely dumbfounded. I purchased (3) of these guys from a fellow forum member a couple of months back. We fell in love with them immediately. Thought they were one of the most handsome toad species out there with their white belly's and their copper eyes. We lost one right off the bat due to some unforeseen illness and when I found more for sale on Kingsnake, I was thrilled. Actually at the time that I found this seller, there was (4) other sellers on Kingsnake that I inquired about. Up to that point, the only legality that I knew about in regards to this species was that it was illegal to extract it's toxin and smoke it. I was unaware that you couldn't "own" one. I bought what I thought was several CB specimens and when John saw the pictures and commented on them possibly being wild caught and noticed the runny stools, I asked the seller. It was at that time that I was advised that he had reared the young himself from eggs that he had harvested. The last several weeks we have worked endlessly rehabilitating these guys. We've spared no expense and probably at this point are a lot more invested in each toad then we should be. That is ok though because it has been totally rewarding to see them come back to life and look as good as they do now. A total 180 for the whole group. We've actually surprised ourselves with what we are capable of because when we first received them, we had about (10) that we figured could have passed any second. Now we have (1) that we are concerned about and everybody else is thriving and beautiful. It is really disheartening to post our experience with the species and to have it met the way it was, i.e. what this has turned in to. When we purchased this batch, we had every intent on keeping almost the entire bunch. We have had numerous messages and emails from people inquiring whether or not we would consider selling some of these once they were better. For that reason, we decided a couple of days ago that the group as a whole was in great condition and could be passed on to the caring hands of a few other hobbyists. At most, we were only going to let go of (4). What has transpired since is unfortunate and makes me refrain from wanting to share anything else on this forum. I feel like we have done a great deed for these toads. If we wouldn't have purchased them, they would have just wasted away in the sellers care. I never asked for a pat on the back but I didn't expect to be made out like a bad guy because I didn't research fish and gaming laws in the continental 50 before purchasing. Lesson learned I guess. I guess that when I logged on to so many websites and saw reputable buisness's offering them for sale, I never got the notion that I should check and see whether or not I could legally purchase one. Actually, I've never done that with any frog purchase. I'm still in a grey area about it all. I read one thing that says it's illegal to possess it, I read another that says its not. I have been in communication with the seller who re-iterates that he is in touch with gaming officils every year before he collects, etc. It just really sucks pretty much. I'm an honest man making an honest living and frogs are something that I enjoy. This on the other hand has not been enjoyable and I don't appreciate how I am made to look like a bad guy or a poacher or whatever. Oh well, I'm done on the topic.

[Paul Rust]

You guys could have had a constructive conversation about this but instead it has degenerated into a back-and-forth argument and name calling. Let's be clear, as things stand, the worst that could happen to Jeff would be confiscation of the animals and an outside chance of a fine - there's a Lacey Act violation in there. Since the original advert was for CB, I don't think Jeff has much to worry about. Now, selling them on is a bigger issue - that could certainly lead to trouble.

Rather than berating each other, you should be reporting the original seller - give their full name and address to USFW and Arizona's equivalent.

Regarding the toads themselves, at this point they should not be released because of potential spread of diseases they may have picked up since entering captivity. If they are confiscated, they will either be destroyed or given to another local keeper. No one wins.

Now please be civil.

Said like a true statesman John.
Let me get in the mud a little more, if I may.
I could care less if people agree or not, in fact a good healthy argument is a great way to learn things and share opinions. However, when you start shooting at each other and making threats, thats where the constructive conversation stops. None of this was necessary and if John hadn't seen this already there would be trouble here. Keep it civil so I don't have to get involved, this is a friendly forum and we all need to work to keep it that way!

[Eel Noob]

Great pix and animals.

[Greg M]

I followed this thread with great interest since I would love to have a Colorado River/Sonoran desert toad. Jeff, did you get some help resolving this issue? I ask this out of genuine interest and not a desire to create any trouble.

[tadpole]

sorry to say, this is a sad thread for me to read. after the first page i fired off an email to an administrator because what i'd read had troubled me. my considerations were the large number of animals first being aquired, how they would be housed, and finally offered for sale from this very thread. i could not understand what appeared to be an such eccentric predilection for owning all these toads, and how a person in possession of his senses could expect to even profit from such an endeavor, considering what it takes in time and materials to raise toads to maturity. and that's on top of the fact the animals appeared to have been illegally collected. i am totally against the exploitation of live animals, especially wild populations, for profit, accent on exploitation. oth, i don't see anything wrong with offering well cared for animals in reasonable quantities offered for sale to interested parties.

at the time i wrote the email to administrator john, and being new to this site, i had only read the first page of the thread, and thought that's as far as it had gone. i was reading back posts and discovered there were 2 more pages of responses i had missed. looks like the cat got out of the bag, so i don't feel so self-concious about publishing my opinion here now.

one fact i wasn't aware of is that this is the toad that people use to get high. man, that just poisons this whole thing for me. here's a link you can read up on why people want this toad, and why it goes for $165:
Legal Weed|Legal Bud|Legal Ways To Get High - Bufo Alvarius/Colorado River Toad/Sonoran Desert Toad

just a guess, but i'd say the only people buying this animal are not planning on having a happy healthy pet. scroll down that link and read what people are doing to this animal for their pleasure. the one description is apparently just some guys in a pet store surreptitiously try to get the venom out of the toad before the manager catches them. these animals are going to be sold into a god knows what kind of a life for drug users. talk about animal exploitation. uuhhgg. sorry guys but that's how i see it, and you will not convince me otherwise with your glib descriptions about what a wonderful pet this makes. and now this website by advertising these animals for sale is party to everything dark about about the pet trade.

[Greg M]

I agree that, regrettably, some Colorado River toads are bought by people desiring to get high (or whatever the proper term is). I personally don't believe that Jeff purchased these toads with a desire to sell them to people who use them for such purposes. Let me just say, for the record, that I am cautiously interested in owning a legally-obtained Colorado River Toad, because they are reported to make interesting pets, and certainly not for the purposes of getting stoned, end of story. I imagine there are many here, including John, that feel the same way. John's pic of a female Colorado River toad is just stunning! For me, the illicit activities associated with this toad are a real impediment to owning a marvelous pet.

[Jeff Kennedy]

I started to type out a long response yet again but it is pointless. I would just be sounding like a broken record. The people that know me and have met me or dealt with me can attest to my character and my intentions. I have a career. Frogs are a passion of ours and a hobby that up to this point, brought us nothing but happiness. On top of our normal jobs, we put in 5-6 hours a day, everyday caring for our frogs. They are some of the healthiest and beautiful frogs that you will find. Every detail on down to poop removal on a daily basis, water bowl changes, on down to the insects that go into there mouths is thought out and planned. We spend $40 a week alone just on fresh fruits and vegetables for our many insect colony's as our frogs reap the benefit of ingesting them. The Colorado River Toad is one of our favorite species. We had several before this purchase that too were obtained captive bred. We had a huge response when people saw that we had acquired several from people wanting to purchase some however these were for us and we obviously weren't going to sell anything in the condition that these guys arrived in. We speant several hundred dollars taking them to the vet so that we could obtain the prescription drugs to treat them for possible parasites and they put a staggering blow on our dubia roach colony as these were the best things for them when we was trying to rehabilitate them. You're right. We have spent a fortune on these toads but we wouldn't have it any other way. The joy that they give us on a daily basis is worth the amount of money. When we decided to offer up a select few (2-3) a month or so ago, it was merely to share the wealth. The $75 price tag that we had initially put on them really didn't even touch what we have in them at this point but we are actually good hearted people and wanted to pass them along to people whom really wanted them, but couldn't shell out $165-$300 for one. The people from this forum that inquired about them are well respected people and I know that they would have been cared for in just the same fashion. They aren't "druggies" or "toad lickers" or whatever you want to call people whom own one. We are also currently conducting an extensive study on the Giant African Bullfrog and house (45) of them at the moment. Then there is an additional (30+) PacMans, (10) cornutas, (4) aurita, some dart frogs and mantellas. Oh yeah, a pet rat, ferret and sulcatta tortoise too. What are we hoping to acquire from all of that? Could it be that we are merely animal lovers (strong on the frog side) and that we get pleasure out of them?? Since you want to label me as someone that's target customer base is junkies, then what will they get from the African Bullfrogs that I will sell when our study is done and I will offer some of these up for sale? As far as legality's and what not, I did some checking myself starting many weeks ago. Crazy right?!?!?!? You have me labeled as someone that is doing something shady, yet I contacted the authorities myself!!!!!!!! I wasn't successful with Arizona. Apparently they are hard to get ahold of, however I did contact New Mexico. They are going to try to get in touch with Arizona themselves and let me know their findings. I respect peoples right to an opinion but before you start throwing daggers at someone and trying to label them, you might want to actually have some kind of idea about whom you're talking about. I've received several personal messages since this post first went public a month or so ago from people applauding us and supporting us because they know us and know that our heart is in the right place. Why they haven't went public I guess is becuase they don't want to be drug into the middle of this and have their reputation sullied over accusations that aren't even the case. That's all. I let all of that roll straight off of my tongue. If I used incorrect grammer or something is mispelled or doesn't make sense, please excuse me. Oh, and I guess I still sent a long response.

[Kurt]

I do keep this species and have never licked it, nor do I ever intend to. I find the thought revolting. Also, the same can be said of John.
It's not really fair to link all people that keep or are interested in this species together as junkies. Sure, there are idiots out there who want them for that purpose, but the ones I have met have all been stupid, burned-out teenagers and no self-respecting vendor would ever sell them anything, never mind a live animal.
Also, it is quite legal to possess the toad, it is illegal to harvest or possess the toxins. At that point its a controlled substance. It can also be deadly if taken.

Jeff, that was a long post and I actually read it. Lately, when I see a long post I don't read it as I have too many things to get to, but I read this one.

[Malachi]

I like these toads...looks.. size.. ect .

i am sorry i cant convince you otherwise...also its over exaggerated on being a real drug..i could explain but i can't apparently change your mind soooo not worth it

Its ridiculous to think we use the toads as a drug or sell them for the use.

[tadpole]

no self-respecting vendor would ever sell them anything, never mind a live animal.

the vendor jeff bought these from could give a flying @#@* about who he sells to. he's out nightly corralling up more of these animals to supply the drug trade. by buying the quantity jeff did does nothing but encourage this vendor to go grab more, and apparently subject them to sordid conditions resulting in the poor condition described.

jeff is trying to take the high road by saying he's rescued these animals from a horrible withering death. BS. he's as much of a contributor to the species collection pressure as the burn outs you just mentioned. the only way to stop this unsavory business is if the demand for the animals stops, period.