Cane Toad poison?

[Raya]

Hi.

I was wondering how poisonous are the Cane toads?

Let's say that you have a dog and a cane toad at home, would the dog have to actually bite the toad to be in danger? Or can it spread from your hands, from when you're cleaning the tank or something like that, to the dog?

Just curious on the subject since they seem like a pretty common pet toad.

[John]

It would have to bite or mouth the toad to be in danger.

[Deku]

A drop of cane toad poison can kill 10 fully grown adults(not talking about old people with weakened state). Also cane toads are toxic throughout their life. I THINk there is one point where they arent AS toxic. Its in a younger state. But I think tadpoles and eggs are toxic to kill. Toadlets I THINK they arent as toxic. Adults are toxic.

[SethD]

A drop of cane toad poison can kill 10 fully grown adults(not talking about old people with weakened state).

Even bufo alvarius venom does not always kill dogs that mouth them though it can do so occasionally. Bufo alvarius is more toxic than cane toads and dogs that mouth them tend to get more than a "drop" of venom as well. More like a couple of squirts. Most bufo toxins do no more than give the predator a bad taste unless it actually ingests the whole toad ignoring the toxins. In Australia where canes are an introduced species they have been known to kill predators as large as crocodiles that ingest them but in such cases the crocodile is usually feeding on a substantial number of toads. One toad isn't enough to kill most of the time unless we are talking a smaller animal.

[Deku]

Even bufo alvarius venom does not always kill dogs that mouth them though it can do so occasionally. Bufo alvarius is more toxic than cane toads and dogs that mouth them tend to get more than a "drop" of venom as well. More like a couple of squirts. Most bufo toxins do no more than give the predator a bad taste unless it actually ingests the whole toad ignoring the toxins. In Australia where canes are an introduced species they have been known to kill predators as large as crocodiles that ingest them but in such cases the crocodile is usually feeding on a substantial number of toads. One toad isn't enough to kill most of the time unless we are talking a smaller animal.

I was basing my answer on this documentary by animal planet I watched a year ago. It was talking about how a cane toad killed a child and then they went off about how its poison can kill 15human beings. I think the most extreme also covered it? Gosh it was along time ago sooo many shows I watch. Anywho I will look into it.

[bshmerlie]

Deku, Do you just make this stuff up...man? You make everything sound so factual, like everything is black or white. But most of the time I can't figure out where you get your facts from.

[Deku]

Deku, Do you just make this stuff up...man? You make everything sound so factual, like everything is black or white. But most of the time I can't figure out where you get your facts from.

No I wouldnt. Thatd be plain stupid of me or anyone to do that. I have a foggy memory in reality. Also I am not that great at stating things. :/ Sorry most of the times I dont mean to make it as its set in stone. It just appears that way. But I strongly recall watching a program on animal planet reguarding cane toads a year ago. It was a show reguarding poisenous animals. I remember the show was showing rock fish, hirocongi jellyfish(I dont know how to spell that), that toad and some other things. As I said Ill look into it.

[bshmerlie]

Actually I remember that show too about poisonous animals and it was on some type of dart frog.

[Deku]

Actually I remember that show too about poisonous animals and it was on some type of dart frog.

I think its not the same one then. the cane toad poison topic is the one I was remembering.. I remember it. It had this blonde haired child. He was picking up a toad and almost going to put it to his mouth. you know that one? Where he was playing with his toys and then he picks up the toad? It also shows a clip of a dog bitting one. It explains about how it can kill a certain amount of humans in seconds from just a single drop of cane toad poison. But I dont think I saw dart frogs on that show

[bshmerlie]

No offense but I think you're mixing up information from two different shows. There was a show on the top ten most poisonous animals, which included some type of jellyfish, some type of scorpion, a stonefish, a funnel web spider, a blue ringed octopus, a taipan snake, a cone snail, and a DART FROG. There was a couple of other animals which I can't recall but it was NOT a cane toad. Which is why when you state information that you are uncertain of as FACT it bugs the @#%* of of me and is not always helpful to the person who is asking the question.

[Deku]

No offense but I think you're mixing up information from two different shows. There was a show on the top ten most poisonous animals, which included some type of jellyfish, some type of scorpion, a stonefish, a funnel web spider, a blue ringed octopus, a taipan snake, a cone snail, and a DART FROG. There was a couple of other animals which I can't recall but it was NOT a cane toad. Which is why when you state information that you are uncertain of as FACT it bugs the @#%* of of me and is not always helpful to the person who is asking the question.

I never said it was a fact. Its not information that is life or death or is reguarding the life of an animal so you shouldnt be extremely upset about it. Secondly I said I had a foggy mind so I might have mixed shows. But I do remember watching a program on animal planet about poisenous animals what I remember most was it talking about cane toads.
Correction I said adults are toxic which is true.

[SethD]

It explains about how it can kill a certain amount of humans in seconds from just a single drop of cane toad poison.

I don't know if you actually heard that somewhere or not but I am absolutely sure that a single drop of cane toad poison is not going to kill anyone in seconds, let alone multiple people. Might make you sick, but isn't going to kill you in "seconds". There are very few poisons that act that fast, even ones that are usually fatal aren't usually that quick. The few that are act on the nervous system.

I never said it was a fact. Its not information that is life or death or is reguarding the life of an animal so you shouldnt be extremely upset about it.

It is just that you do an awful lot of this and it gets really old to me and I guess others as well. Though I haven't said anything you have at least three or four posts or threads just in the past day or two where you give advice or make statements that are really inaccurate, ill advised, or off the wall. Like that thread you made recently about how to save a drowning toad. That seems to be about the norm. Generally speaking if you don't know for sure that a statement is accurate and that your advice is good it is better not to say it or at least make very sure that everyone knows that it may or may not be true.

[Rat The Unloved]

Protip from the peanut gallery: If you think you know something about a topic, and opt to post about it anywhere on the internet, or speak about it with friends, try looking it up first! I'm extremely educated on some topics and I still do a quick "refresher" just to make sure something new hasn't come up since the last time I researched.

Animal Planet is NOT a reliable source of information, I've heard them say pitcher plants can dissolve a human hand. Sure, if you cut it off, cut it up into small bits, and put a small bit in each pitcher. For that matter, most TV is a poor idea for obtaining one's "facts".

From a few minutes of web searching I found out that Bufotoxin (a cocktail of various chemicals), the "milk" secreted by toad glands is primarily a cardiotoxin, with effects similar to digitalis/foxglove toxins.

The LD50 (LD50 is the measurement at which half of the test subjects died. I.e. "Lethal Dose in 50%") of these chemicals are not clearly listed in most places - I found an LD50 list concerning test felines. Others are norepinephrine and seratonin. ETA: The LD50 article may or may not mention recreational drug use. I didn't read it very closely. I DO NOT support such activities, but it was the only source I could find for the LD50 of the toxin.

One of the constituents of -some- toad milk is Bufotenin, Aka 5-OH-DMT - being a schedule 1 psychoactive compound with a LD50 around 200mg/kg.

NONE of these constituent chemicals will kill in seconds, or even particularly quickly in the doses found in even a single large frog. You'd die of cardiac arrest, which takes some time... er... as morbid as that is.

Now, from someone experienced with dealing with toxic, vicious, kill-you-if-you-eat-them-or-even-offend-their-sensibilities-too-hard plants (including digitalis) - the best safe handling is as follows:

Wear gloves. Unpowdered "latex alternative" gloves preferable. Wear eye protection. I suggest some stylish shop glasses. Keep your mouth closed, or averted when handling the animal. Scrub down thoroughly post-handling. If you get toxin in your mouth or eye, get the hell to an ER. If your pet eats it - well... that's up to you. I strongly suggest trying an animal emergency clinic.

But, in answer to the OP's question: Wash your hands after handling and there should be no issue of transfer, or better yet - gloves. It would have to bite or menace the toad, one-on-one to be in danger.

[SethD]

The LD50 (LD50 is the measurement at which half of the test subjects died. I.e. "Lethal Dose in 50%") of these chemicals are not clearly listed in most places - I found an LD50 list concerning test felines. Others are norepinephrine and seratonin. ETA: The LD50 article may or may not mention recreational drug use. I didn't read it very closely. I DO NOT support such activities, but it was the only source I could find for the LD50 of the toxin.

Thanks for the link, an interesting read. I found it interesting that the percentages of fatal poisoning in pets reportedly varied so much depending on the area the cane toad was from. High death rates in pets mouthing florida canes, low death rates from south texas canes, and about 5% death rate from canes in Hawaii. Makes me wonder if the difference is due to limited data, dietary differences or slightly different types of poisons due to genetic differences in populations.

Now, from someone experienced with dealing with toxic, vicious, kill-you-if-you-eat-them-or-even-offend-their-sensibilities-too-hard plants (including digitalis) - the best safe handling is as follows:

Wear gloves. Unpowdered "latex alternative" gloves preferable. Wear eye protection. I suggest some stylish shop glasses. Keep your mouth closed, or averted when handling the animal. Scrub down thoroughly post-handling. If you get toxin in your mouth or eye, get the hell to an ER. If your pet eats it - well... that's up to you. I strongly suggest trying an animal emergency clinic.

Fortunately toads aren't as dangerous as "kill-you-if-you-eat-them-or-even-offend-their-sensibilities-too-hard plants" if your just handling them. Most keepers don't use gloves and I haven't heard of anyone dying or even getting sick from it yet. At various times I have had toad venom on my bare skin(taking wild toads away from dogs and cats as well as dealing with stressed captive specimens) and it didn't even burn. Of course if you got it in you mouth or eyes it wouldn't do you any good but I don't think it tends to be readily absorbed through the skin.

[Deku]

I don't know if you actually heard that somewhere or not but I am absolutely sure that a single drop of cane toad poison is not going to kill anyone in seconds, let alone multiple people. Might make you sick, but isn't going to kill you in "seconds". There are very few poisons that act that fast, even ones that are usually fatal aren't usually that quick. The few that are act on the nervous system.




It is just that you do an awful lot of this and it gets really old to me and I guess others as well. Though I haven't said anything you have at least three or four posts or threads just in the past day or two where you give advice or make statements that are really inaccurate, ill advised, or off the wall. Like that thread you made recently about how to save a drowning toad. That seems to be about the norm. Generally speaking if you don't know for sure that a statement is accurate and that your advice is good it is better not to say it or at least make very sure that everyone knows that it may or may not be true.

yeah thats why the american toad didnt die. If I make a post that is wrong people correct me right there and thats about it. Theres no reason to start an arguement or even get mad. In general I havent been able to provide links for a few reasons which I constantly stated. In any case this is what a forum is for. To discuss and debate about issues and information and learn. Is it not? Nobody here is an expert well maybe kurt or john. Kurt worked or works with reptiles and amphibians and I dont know about john but Iam sure hes very savvy about it by now. Its called a discussion.Also never said it was through the skin now did I?

[Rat The Unloved]

I found it interesting that the percentages of fatal poisoning in pets reportedly varied so much depending on the area the cane toad was from.

It may be something as simple as threat-level. Florida would be an area with higher numbers of natural, and introduced, predators capable of the brassy nature of a committed attack. It's a theory.

Fortunately toads aren't as dangerous as "kill-you-if-you-eat-them-or-even-offend-their-sensibilities-too-hard plants" if your just handling them.

I always try to err on the side of caution. I've handled plants and animals that should not have caused me trouble, but did. So unless I'm really, really, familiar with the individual specimen - it's gloves.

[SethD]

yeah thats why the american toad didnt die.

Well, I am 99% sure the toad would have been fine without the treatment. I have seen a lot of half drowned frogs and toads in pools, buckets, etc. Sometimes they have absorbed so much water that they are visibly bloated and can barely move. If they aren't dead though after a few hours they nearly always recover with no treatment at all.

[SethD]

I always try to err on the side of caution. I've handled plants and animals that should not have caused me trouble, but did. So unless I'm really, really, familiar with the individual specimen - it's gloves.

Well nothing wrong with that, I tend to take precautions based on perceived threat level most of the time but there is nothing wrong with being extra careful if one is not certain.

[Deku]

Well, I am 99% sure the toad would have been fine without the treatment. I have seen a lot of half drowned frogs and toads in pools, buckets, etc. Sometimes they have absorbed so much water that they are visibly bloated and can barely move. If they aren't dead though after a few hours they nearly always recover with no treatment at all.

Someone else had success with this too. It didnt hurt the toad so its not a bad thing to try. The toad isnt scared stiff of me. It also eats well. It just ate 4 medium crickets. the toad wasnt floating when I found it. It had sunk to the bottom. In any case I found it to be helpful for myself. And I thought if someone had the same problem it would them.

[Kurt]

Nobody here is an expert well maybe kurt or john. Kurt worked or works with reptiles and amphibians and I dont know about john but Iam sure hes very savvy about it by now.

Actually, there are quite a few people I consider experts, Seth and Terry imediately come to mind. As does Paul. I hope I am not forgetting anybody, I know I am. Sorry if I am.

By the way its the irukandji box jellyfish, Carukia barnesi.

Kevin, whenever you make a statement be prepared to back it up with a reliable source, kind of like having a bibliography. Animal Planet is not a reliable source. I have come quite a few mistakes and misinformation on that channel.