2 quick White tree frog questions

[KayJoh]

I haven't actually got any frogs yet, I will be a total beginner.
I have been reading up for months now to make sure frogs will be right for me and more importantly whether I can give them a happy life.
I plan to start out with fake plants but I keep wondering about the substrate. I really like the more natural look substrate but keep hearing that paper towels would be best. I would be grateful of some opinions on whether I can go with an earthy substrate or should I stick with the paper towels. Which substrate would be best for WTF (as in the more natural looking if it is possible.)
My other question is about the size of Exo terra I should go with. I did plan to just go straight in and get a 45x45x60 but I read somewhere that baby Whites tree frogs may have trouble finding food in a bigger space. Can I go strait for the 45x45x60 or should I go for a smaller size and upgrade later and if so what size would be a better starter.
I would really appreciate some opinions and guidance as I want to start out right.
Oh and by the way, I would like to keep 2 frogs. Does that sound O.K in this size.
Thanks.

[elly]

I'd suggest going straight for the bigger tank. You can always feed crickets in a tall, smooth sided bowl or tong-feed. It might be good to have a plastic bin with a ventilated lid or something to keep the frog while you clean the tank, though.

Most important things with these frogs is to make sure the temperature and humidity can be maintained in the tank. Also providing non-chlorinated water. (I don't suggest distilled for these amphibians though.)

All substrates have good and bad points. Changing coconut fiber/etc all the time can get expensive. Paper towels are pretty clean, but if you don't change them very frequently they grow bacteria easily. I went with the living tank: a drainage layer with a terrarium soil mix with live plants. That way the plants take up the ammonia created by the frogs and the soil never needs changing. Even that isn't perfect though, especially if you end up with some kind of parasite in the tank, it can multiply. That's what happened to me. Still, lots of people have had living tanks for years with no problems.

A few more considerations about this species: they can live into their twenties/ late teens. You might need to care for them for a while. They do call at night (to me it sounds like a distant dog bark.) You'll also need to make sure you have a reliable source of insects. These frogs seem to do well on nothing but crickets, but a calcium/multivitamin should help keep them healthy. It might not hurt to check and see if there's an exotic vet in your area, just in case.

That's about it, except for lighting. It's controversial because these are nocturnal animals but I've been linked a newer study which suggests it might help with bone density. Some lower wattage UVB light might help. I'd just make sure the frogs had a place to hide from the light if they want.

Also, yeah with a tank that size two frogs should fit. I have two frogs in the same sized tank.

I know this all probably sounds like a lot. But I think this covers the major stuff.

[KayJoh]

Thank you so much for all the helpful advice, it is very much appreciated.
After your explanation of the various substrates I think I am going to go with soil substrate with artificial plants for now.
I was looking at one called E-Coco which says it is coco peat and coconut husk which is actually advertised for whites tree frogs but I like to just check.Would this one be suitable. If not which ones are the best?
As far as the life span and having to look after them for a long time that is absolutely fine by me. I am a very keen Fancy goldfish keeper and they are a lot of hard work as I have 4 big tanks which I have to do large water changes on a weekly basis with a syphon tube and buckets because I can't have a water changing system but I love my fish so I do it religiously. I wont take a pet on on a whim so fully understand they are for a long time.
The crickets wont be a problem. I have a local Aquatic/pet store near to me and they always have loads of live feeder insects.
I will now go straight for the 45x45x60 vivarium. To be honest it is better for me as I didn't really want to have the expense of having to upgrade.
Anyway, thanks again for all your help and advice.

[LydiasMom]

I've been using the e- coco substrate and it's been really good. We got mites and I had to bake all of it, but you'd have to do that with soil too.

Live plants really do a lot for your critter friends, physically and mentally/emotionally. So, I'd recommend cultivating live plants to keep the ammonia and other noxious chemicals that can gather in the tank down. Also for the happiness of your frogs. Stress can kill them and live plants help them to not stress

[KayJoh]

Hi LydiasMom,
just a question, how do you get mites? do they come in on the frog or substrate or some other way.
That sounds like a rude question but it isn't meant to be, I just want to know as much as I can before I start out.
Any advice is very much appreciated by anyone so thank you.

[LydiasMom]

Hi LydiasMom,
just a question, how do you get mites? do they come in on the frog or substrate or some other way.
That sounds like a rude question but it isn't meant to be, I just want to know as much as I can before I start out.
Any advice is very much appreciated by anyone so thank you.

Not rude at all! There's actually a lot of kinds of mites and ways they can show up. They should not arrive from your frogs tho.

Substrate can be a carrier, but the e-coco sterilizes so it's pretty safe. Soil is a big culprit when that's the carrier

Plants. They need to be carefully rinsed off before being planned in your frogs home, no matter who you purchase them from, it's always best to check. And if you get plants from a flower or garden show be EXTRA thorough, because they're notorious for that issue. Also if you get any plants/ wood from nature it needs to be thoroughly cleansed.

Your little friend's food. Crickets, even ants can carry a mite infection in on them.

If you see mites you're going to need to do one of two things, disassemble and bake/ wash everything. Or remove all critters you don't want dead and use dry ice to bath the whole thing. The plants will love it, but anything that needs oxygen will die overnight. Make sure you don't gas yourself either and ventilate the tank properly before returning any oxygen dependant friends.

Does that help?

[elly]

I don't personally know that live plants are necessarily the best. Frogs do need somewhere to hide to prevent stress and fake plants can help with that. However it's nice that live plants help prevent ammonia buildup. Also, fake plants should be checked carefully for hard edges or exposed wires. They should be cleaned thoroughly from time to time.

If you keep fancy goldfish, frogs shouldn't be too hard. Their water bowls need changing every day, or at least every two days. Or, I forgot to mention you can have a semi aquatic setup with a shallow layer of water on the bottom, a small filter, and plenty of places to climb out of the water.

e-coco sounds like it would be good. I don't recommend rocks small enough to fit into the frog's mouth in the tank. I've seen cases where frogs ate rocks before. Seriously! I have no idea how they survive in the wild.