Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: Another tree frog stowaway

  1. #1

    Default Another tree frog stowaway

    Hi, everyone!

    I've seen this topic posted about before, so I hope you'll forgive me for posting this! I have a few specific questions.

    My mother in Indiana has found herself with a grey tree frog stowaway in her apartment; as they often do seem to, he probably hitched a ride in on a houseplant brought in for the winter.

    It's now December and he's still kickin', though it's tough to say whether he's well fed at this point.

    I'm a wildlife biologist, but not a herp specialist, so I've been checking with a few old friends and mentors on the best course of action, but I would love some input from folks who are personally familiar with tree frogs!

    So, I've narrowed the options down to a few things that seem most practical and most likely to have a favorable outcome for our noisy friend:
    1) Release him at the best time she can, best on weather, and transport him to a local park with woods, where she can place him under some leaf litter.

    2) Prepare a terrarium for him.
    3) Try to help ease him into hibernation somehow.

    My concerns with option 1 are mostly with acclimatization. I know greys can survive freezing temperatures. But how quickly can they safely acclimatize? We've got rain today, with a temperature around the upper 30s. It'll be freezing tonight and in the 20s and 30s for highs the rest of the week. While I usually try to "let nature take its course," I'd feel guilty having my mom put him out to his doom after accidentally bringing him in. And she's a huge bleeding heart who is having a rough time lately and despite not being comfortable with the frog being loose, is feeling pretty invested in his wellbeing.

    Concerns for option 2 are several. I don't think mom is interested in keeping him. I've read up on their care and feel fairly sure I could provide for him (so long as I can get my fiance to agree). I've heard some speculation that if you overwinter a frog and feed it, they become accustomed to being fed and are unlikely to fare well in the wild on their own anymore. What truth is there to this? I am not finding any formal data, but I'm skeptical, since frog hunting behaviors are pretty simple.

    Another issue - I see on their care sheet that without the hibernation cycle, they are unlikely to breed. Well, that's pretty crappy for him if he doesn't get his hibernation cycle in. If it's too late to do so safely outdoors now, is there a method of helping him with that at this point, kind of late in the season? I might need some more specifics than the care sheet offers. Specific temperatures / time to acclimate to each would be beneficial. This idea might also be tricky since neither I nor my mother have a garage or anything.

    I'd like to give this little guy the best shot at getting back in the wild healthy. The sooner we can get him back out where he belongs, the better, but if it would be risky to do so now.

    So I guess my questions are:
    * How fast can they acclimatize to temperature changes? (IE, how warm should it be (highs/lows?) before we attempt to put him out?)
    * If I put him in a terrarium for the winter, do I ruin his reproductive chances? Would he at least be able to provide for himself?
    * Is helping him get acclimatized and hibernate, either by keeping him or by acclimatizing him and returning him to the wild while he's "out" a reasonable option?
    *Which of these options seems the most likely to give this guy his best chance at having a normal froggy life?

    Thanks in advance for any help you guys can offer.

  2. # ADS
    Circuit advertisement
    Join Date
    Always
    Posts
    Many
     

  3. #2
    100+ Post Member elly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Nationality
    [United States]
    Posts
    1,619
    Blog Entries
    5
    Picture Albums: Member Photo Albums

    Default Re: Another tree frog stowaway

    disclaimer: I'm not an expert. I don't have any more experience than reading an article on how to safely hibernate White's Tree Frogs, but no one else seems to have responded yet.

    I would put him out if it warmed up a bit (not supposed to be freezing for a couple nights) and trust him to find his own way, but that's just me. Not being fed might be a good thing since you don't want the food in his stomach to ferment and risk causing him problems.

    I don't know anything about how long he'd need to hibernate to mate, so I'm not going to attempt to advise there.

    I don't know for sure that the frog wouldn't lose his ability to hunt after spending a winter being fed but it doesn't seem very likely. My pet frogs seem to still have hunting instincts. Becoming too familiar with humans might not be good, but I doubt it would be a serious threat either.

    Edit: This person seems to be saying that it might take as little as two weeks of cold/hibernation for them to want to mate: http://www.caudata.org/forum/f53-oth...s-indoors.html

  4. 2 members thank elly for this post:


  5. #3
    Moderator LilyPad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Nationality
    [United States]
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    3,445
    Blog Entries
    8
    Picture Albums: Member Photo Albums

    Default Re: Another tree frog stowaway

    I would, personally, not release him at this point without transitioning him into hibernation. Unfortunately, even if you do that, he hasn't instinctively found *his* place that he feels is appropriate and safe to hibernate and should be asleep and unable to find that place. You could hibernate inside over the winter and release them in the spring, but I would recommend against doing it in a refrigerator as there are surprisingly fluctuating temperatures in there. Something like a wine cooler would be more stable (it doesn't hurt to add your own thermostat to the mix). If you choose to hibernate though, I will have to try to find someone else to help you. I have never hibernated because I do not want to breed my greys so it isn't worth the risk for me.

    If you keep him awake in a vivarium, which is what I would probably do because it is the lowest risk, he will still breed. The males get *in the mood* by the current temperatures, humidity, and the behavior of other males rather than by season changes alone. The females are the ones that need the cycle changes in order to produce eggs. Even then, my female got eggy every spring just with my ambient room temperatures going from the upper 70's down to the mid-upper 60's and back up. I bowl feed my captive grey tree frogs, but I probably would not if I intended to release them in the wild. You want him to retain his hunting instinct rather than sit around and wait for a bowl to show up. Because of that, I would change up how you feed him. If they see the same cricket box or bowl or whatever you use to feed at the same time each day, it will become used to a routine and expect that.

    I hope that this helps and feel free to ask anymore questions!
    2.0.3 Hyla versicolor "Eastern Gray Tree Frogs"
    2.2.0 Agalychnis callidryas "Red Eyed Tree Frogs"

    0.0.3 Dendrobates auratus "Turquoise and Bronze"
    0.0.1 Anaxyrus fowleri "Fowler's Toad"



  6. 2 members thank LilyPad for this post:


  7. #4

    Default Re: Another tree frog stowaway

    Ah, that is so helpful! Thank you.

    Well, I'll cross out releasing him as an option for now. I figured it wouldn't be good to put him out in near-freezing temps when he hasn't had time to adjust gradually.

    VERY glad to hear that neglecting to hibernate him won't necessarily ruin his reproductive odds. I'm fairly confident he's a male - I actually heard him loudly singing the classic GTF song the last time I was in my mother's apartment (I kept thinking red-bellied woodpecker and was SO confused; we didn't know about the frog yet. As soon as she called me and said something about a "toad" I remembered the song and knew exactly what she had on her hands, haha.)

    Okay, so it's between hibernating/estivating/burminating and just caring for him through the winter.
    I guess I need to determine how difficult it might be for me to safely get him into hibernation. If I could safely have him enter hibernation, and then keep him in the right circumstances, it would be far easier to look after him (and easier to convince my fiance, heh...)

    So before I make a call between those plans, I'd love to have more specific directions. I don't have anything like a wine cooler, though I do have a mini fridge in the basement that could theoretically be adjusted to one temperature and left alone down there just for him. (If we're not opening and closing it for food access, maybe the temperature would stay consistent?)

    I've searched the forums and elsewhere for really good directions on how to properly prepare frogs and cool them down to hibernation, but I'm having trouble finding reliable sources with good specifics (Ie, timelines of when to feed and stop feeding, temperatures and acclimatization times needed before cooling more, appropriate containers and during-hibernation care, how to safely wake back up, etc).

    I won't attempt hibernation if I think it's outside my knowledge and means, but I'll need a pretty tight run-down on how to do it before I can decide whether I trust myself to pull that off.

    If I do decide to set up a vivarium for him, would you recommend just letting the crickets loose in the vivarium and cleaning them out if they're not eaten fairly soon?

  8. #5
    Moderator LilyPad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Nationality
    [United States]
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    3,445
    Blog Entries
    8
    Picture Albums: Member Photo Albums

    Default Re: Another tree frog stowaway

    The fridges are hard because they let their temperatures go up quite a bit before kicking on and cooling back down. The more stable the temperature, the lower the risk. A mini fridge would be better though if it was left alone like you said. Beyond that, again, I am not much help. I know that for reptiles that hibernate, you have to allow them to empty their bowels and slow them down slowly, but I am not sure if it would be the same for a frog. I would contact a breeder directly to find out, but that may not be easy considering there are an abundance of them in the wild here and are rarely bred.

    If he is calling, he is definitely a *he.* A female might make a startle noise (one soft chirp) but will not call.

    As for feeding, I would make sure there is nothing he wouldn't snap up and get impacted with (like moss, stones, or wood chips) and just let them loose. If you track how many you throw in and disappear, then you'll have a good idea of how much he is eating at night and then wont have to deal with too many extras. Even with only slight temperature drops, my greys appetites drops off fairly significantly in the winter, so you may not need to feed too much. I go from feeding about 2 dozen crickets a week (to 2 grey tree frog males) to about 10 a week.

    Otherwise, if your fiance is really unhappy about it, you can drive him up to Wisconsin and I'll take care of him for the winter haha.
    2.0.3 Hyla versicolor "Eastern Gray Tree Frogs"
    2.2.0 Agalychnis callidryas "Red Eyed Tree Frogs"

    0.0.3 Dendrobates auratus "Turquoise and Bronze"
    0.0.1 Anaxyrus fowleri "Fowler's Toad"



  9. This member thanks LilyPad for this post:


  10. #6

    Default Re: Another tree frog stowaway

    Fiance actually has said now that he's not opposed to taking in the little guy! I'm pleasantly surprised.

    It'll still be a time and money investment if we're not able to help him hibernate, though. Hopefully someone with experience with that will chime in with specific advice. My searches still aren't really turning up advice specific enough for me to feel comfortable.

    Good point on the fridges. If it comes to that, hopefully the mini fridge dedicated to the frog only would be stable enough, but that's yet another variable to consider. I'm leaning toward vivarium now unless someone can help grant me the knowledge to go the hibernation route with confidence.

    In the meantime, recommendations about awesome affordable vivariums and pro tips about setups would be much appreciated! So far I'll be looking for
    * A square or vertically-oriented vivarium (glass with mesh top?)
    * Sturdy branches for climbing (Is it safe to use found wood if it's oven-dried?
    * Substrate - the care sheet suggests additive-free top soil. Any other recommendations? Or specific soil recommendations?
    * Plants - real or fake, again, open to suggestions on what might do nicely in a one-frog vivarium
    * Smallish crickets - I've only seen one pic of this frog, and he's not *tiny*... looks to be your average male grey tree frog. Any vitamin/mineral powder and calcium powder recommendations for these dudes?
    * Stuff to dechlorinate the water, as well as a sprayer for misting.

    I've seen suggestions for lights as well, and would love a recommendation on how to best provide light without overheating/drying the whole vivarium.

    Thank you again for all the help!

  11. #7
    100+ Post Member monster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Nationality
    [Canada]
    Location
    Barrie,ON
    Posts
    1,326

    Default Re: Another tree frog stowaway

    Hi, I cant say to much or give to much helpful advice because I don't own treefrogs but I do own a few pacman frogs. Regarding the aestivation/ hibernation yes its the same as reptiles, you want them to empty out any poop before going to sleep. If not the food will just rot inside the stomach and eventually turn the frog septic which would not end well for the frog.

  12. #8
    Moderator LilyPad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Nationality
    [United States]
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    3,445
    Blog Entries
    8
    Picture Albums: Member Photo Albums

    Default Re: Another tree frog stowaway

    I put my answers in red for you

    Quote Originally Posted by Kisota View Post
    Fiance actually has said now that he's not opposed to taking in the little guy! I'm pleasantly surprised.

    It'll still be a time and money investment if we're not able to help him hibernate, though. Hopefully someone with experience with that will chime in with specific advice. My searches still aren't really turning up advice specific enough for me to feel comfortable.

    Good point on the fridges. If it comes to that, hopefully the mini fridge dedicated to the frog only would be stable enough, but that's yet another variable to consider. I'm leaning toward vivarium now unless someone can help grant me the knowledge to go the hibernation route with confidence.

    In the meantime, recommendations about awesome affordable vivariums and pro tips about setups would be much appreciated! So far I'll be looking for
    * A square or vertically-oriented vivarium (glass with mesh top? Glass with screen top would be perfect.
    * Sturdy branches for climbing (Is it safe to use found wood if it's oven-dried? Yes, that would work. I bake my wood and branches at 250 degrees F for a half hour.
    * Substrate - the care sheet suggests additive-free top soil. Any other recommendations? Or specific soil recommendations? Because you are only keeping him temporarily, coco coir would work just fine. Just get the bricks that you find at the pet store and make sure they're FULLY expanded. It doesn't hurt to leave them in the water overnight. You could just use un-printed paper toweling on the bottom, but the coco coir will help maintain humidity. I do put a drainage layer in even temporary homes though so the substrate doesn't get swamped. I usually use rinsed perlite (that you can find at any garden store) but you could even do aquarium gravel or rocks if you want. Just put some fiberglass screening over that and your soil on top.
    * Plants - real or fake, again, open to suggestions on what might do nicely in a one-frog vivarium Either or will work because it is only a temporary home. If you want to go real and cheap, just get a pothos. Home depot has a lot of plants that work. My fat greys love diffenbachia and philodendron.
    * Smallish crickets - I've only seen one pic of this frog, and he's not *tiny*... looks to be your average male grey tree frog. Any vitamin/mineral powder and calcium powder recommendations for these dudes? Crickets should be no longer than the space between the frog's eyes. For vitamins and minerals, I use rep-cal +D3 and herptivite. I do calcium around 5 days a week and herptivite around 2 days a week. It does vary from week to week though. Repashy also makes some good vitamin supplements.
    * Stuff to dechlorinate the water, as well as a sprayer for misting? I use seachem prime for all my water treating. There are other products, but that is my favorite. You do not want to use anything with additives like aloe.

    I've seen suggestions for lights as well, and would love a recommendation on how to best provide light without overheating/drying the whole vivarium I use LED lighting because it stays cool. However, if you want to go cheap and want live plants, you can just do compact fluorescent lighting with a 6500K rating. I do a 12 hour day/night cycle. My lights go on at 7am and off at 7pm. You could also provide UVB if you wish.

    Thank you again for all the help!
    2.0.3 Hyla versicolor "Eastern Gray Tree Frogs"
    2.2.0 Agalychnis callidryas "Red Eyed Tree Frogs"

    0.0.3 Dendrobates auratus "Turquoise and Bronze"
    0.0.1 Anaxyrus fowleri "Fowler's Toad"



  13. This member thanks LilyPad for this post:


  14. #9

    Default Re: Another tree frog stowaway

    Big update:

    I found another way; I think this is probably an even better outcome for everyone.

    I managed to locate a wildlife rehab clinic near my mother. They are licensed to care for reptiles and amphibians, and they were happy to take our little frog buddy off her hands.

    So he's in a safe spot! If he makes it through the winter okay, they'll come back to my mom's area to release him.

    Thanks again for all the help. I'm glad that I have the info necessary to help out another frog in a pinch.

  15. #10
    Moderator LilyPad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Nationality
    [United States]
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    3,445
    Blog Entries
    8
    Picture Albums: Member Photo Albums

    Default Re: Another tree frog stowaway

    Fantastic! I am glad they will be able to help him
    2.0.3 Hyla versicolor "Eastern Gray Tree Frogs"
    2.2.0 Agalychnis callidryas "Red Eyed Tree Frogs"

    0.0.3 Dendrobates auratus "Turquoise and Bronze"
    0.0.1 Anaxyrus fowleri "Fowler's Toad"



  16. #11

    Default Re: Another tree frog stowaway

    Same! I sent them a donation. Wildlife rehabbers can always use it...

    I really appreciate the help from you all; I know where I'll come next time I get in a tangle with an amphibian!

    Cheers!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. American Toad stowaway
    By DogStar in forum Toads
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: September 13th, 2014, 02:44 PM
  2. Stowaway Cuban Tree Frog
    By Fwissy in forum General Discussion & News
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: December 7th, 2013, 10:16 AM
  3. Replies: 2
    Last Post: October 26th, 2011, 05:45 PM
  4. Replies: 3
    Last Post: May 22nd, 2011, 07:00 AM
  5. Stowaway
    By Jace in forum Tree Frogs
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: August 3rd, 2010, 02:28 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •