second time owner after a disastrous first attempt. (baby CB RETFs)

[edie]

going to add some backstory so my concerns will have some context:

husband surprised me with two male RETFs in late september, which required me to sort of learn as i went. while i appreciated the gift (since i've been wanting them for five years), i also like to know what i'm doing before i start, especially when lives are at stake; i unfortunately didn't have this luxury and had to figure things out quickly.

he had done some basic research, and got the enclosure ready, with the thermometer and hydrometer, a heat lamp, the substrate, etc.

however, when the frogs failed to thrive after a day, i started looking for more information. discovered the enclosure was too small, read in a ton of places (including here) that humidity should be more like 90%, etc. etc., so started switching things out. in other words, that 'research' led me to make a series of what were probably catastrophic errors (albeit well-intentioned ones) in order to try to acclimate them/get them to eat (which they never did), which ultimately resulted in the death of one seven days later, and the other five days after that. so, within two weeks of receiving my frogs, they were both gone, and i was inconsolable for three days, but then set about to doing proper, thought out research with the intention of trying again once i was confident i knew what i was doing. the second round of research resulted in me figuring out all the things i'd done precisely wrong (too much to list, but can if requested).

first step was to find a breeder of captive bred babies, which i did. (i realized far too late that not only were the first two native caught adults, but that they came from a drop shipper, not a breeder.)

anyway, so here we are, with the new babies home since yesterday around 11a PT, and me feeling more confident that this time i knew what i was doing.

however, now i'm second-guessing myself, and given that they're so young, am worried that even the slightest misstep will spell disaster.

so, the details:

1----what 'kind' of frog is it ( what species) - RETF
2----please include a photo of the frog (trying to figure out how to add; keeps telling me .jpg isn't a proper image file; resized to 800x800 and still not working)
3----Please include a photo of the frog's current enclosure (see above)
4----size of enclosure ( W" x D" x H" ) 18x18x24
5----# on inhabitants - ( if there is another frog --- is there a size difference ? ) - 2, both babies, basically the same size, one slightly smaller
6----has or was the frog kept with a different species or with any other tank mate - yes, with other babies
7----is there a new tank mate----was the new tank mate quarantined - no and n/a; they arrived at the same time, and yesterday i caught them adorably sleeping together (but then one saw me and moved before i could get back to snap a pic. haha)
8----what is the typical humidity level - i can't seem to get it below 80% without leaving the door open
9----what temperature is maintained - 73.6 - 76.8
10---what is, specifically, being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure - so far, room temp is adequate, but i'm trying to come up with a solution for winter. tried a heatwave that didn't work; have a heat lamp but it increases temps too fast and high and as such has to be tightly controlled; have only used it once since yesterday, for a few minutes to bring the temp to 76 from 72.
11---describe the enclosure lighting ( very specifically) - uvb 13w 100 zoo med
12---describe enclosure maintenance ( water changes, cleaning etc) - water changes (dechlorinated) each morning, using coco brick substrate but with paper towels (wet with dechlorinated water) over it till they acclimate since they were raised on josh's frogs' frog foam, changing towels when i change water.
13---what kind of water is used - dechlorinated tap
-----for misting - same
-----for the frog's soaking dish - same
-----is de-chlorinator used / what brand - api, two drops in roughly 1.5 gallons left out and uncovered
14---material(s) used for substrate - be very specific - coco brick, zoo med, about 1.5 inch deep
15---enclosure set up:
-----if recent - describe how the enclosure was cleaned
-----plants( live or artificial) if artificial plants are used are they plastic or fabric - artificial as recommended by josh's frogs; plastic; cleaned with 5% bleach solution, rinsed, air dried 24 hours prior to putting in terrarium
-----describe wood, bark , and background materials - cork background (exo terra)
16---when is the last time the frog ate - one last night; other, i'm not sure if he ate, but i don't think so as he remained sleeping while the other was hunting
17---have you found poop lately - no
18---how often is the frog fed - so far, nightly
19---what size feeder is given - not sure the size, but they are TINY, and what josh's frogs shipped with the frogs
20---what other feeders are used as treats - none yet
21---what is the frog's main food source - crickets, dusted with repashy calcium plus (also recommended by josh's frogs, and what they give their froglets)
22---do feeders roam free in the enclosure or is the frog bowl fed - both; i'm hedging my bets due to the prior disaster
23---vitamins - what brand and how often - repashy, dusted each night
24---calcium - what brand and how often - see above
25---was the frog without calcium for any period of time - only had them for two days; i know that josh's dusts all crickets
26---approximate age of the frog - 8-10 weeks
27---how long have you owned the frog - 2 days
28---who cared for the frog before you - josh's frogs
29---is the frog wild caught or captive bred - captive
30---how often the frog is handled -- are gloves used ( what kind of gloves) - i haven't touched the frogs since i put them in the terrarium; washed hands first, got wet with dechlorinated water, dropped them in as fast as possible and haven't touched them since
31---is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area - medium, but low since we got them (on purpose; we've been avoiding the room except to check on them, and keep the lights out at night)
30---has or was the frog properly quarantined (yes or no) - no
-----for how long
32---has the frog been treated with any medication: UNK
-----for what
-----name of medication
-----for how long
-----what dose
-----was medication prescribed by a herp vet

____

here are my questions/concerns:

the air in the tank feels dry to me, but the hydrometers both consistently read within 5% of each other, at 75% (when i crack the door for a little while) up to 85% when i don't. this makes me fear misting, because when i do, the humidity skyrockets to 90+. since i think too much humidity was in large part what sickened the first two frogs, i am very very wary of letting the humidity get too high. especially with artificial plants in there. the humidity is my primary concern right now; the frogs do look a little 'dry' to me. but the gauges consistently read higher than i'd like (i know the frogs were raised at 70%).

one of the frogs hasn't moved much at all; while one was up and hunting last night, little lucas stayed tucked under his leaf, where he remained from 1a till about 6p tonight (he simply moved to the top of the leaf). i'm not sure if i should be concerned about this, or if he's not acclimating. since i went through this with the first two, i am nervous.

i'm not thrilled about using artificial plants, but after reading josh's frogs recommendations and pros/cons of each (and after live plants being used last time, only for the frogs to die), i decided to go this route. one thing i didn't factor in last tine was the pesticides that stores spray on the plants (in this case, orchids), so i'm wary of using live plants until i find a vendor that doesn't spray. (josh's doesn't, but shipping from michigan to california is HIGH). likewise, they're harder to clean, or so i've read, and there's the chance of breeding bacteria. so i purchased the artificial plants josh's specifically recommends (all exo terra), as well as a cork background and a large jungle vine.

i had two water dishes in there, but removed one due to the high humidity readings.

i made a LOT of mistakes last time; basically, i'm doing everything the opposite this time around, but i'm still concerned.

they overall seem fine, but it's hard to tell because they're so tiny, and in the case of the one who i don't think has eaten, he looks a little 'sucked up' to me.

i'm just not sure what else to do at this point. i'm extremely hesitant to switch out the substrate and plants to something different, since messing with the last ones' enclosure(s) so much probably made things even worse, so i guess i'm just wondering if a) this setup is fine, and what's happening now is normal, or b) it's a disaster that needs to be changed now.

and i don't know how to address this humidity issue.

so sorry for the novel and the all-over-the-place aspect of this post, but i really don't want to screw this up again.

[elly]

I'm not an expert on these particular frogs, but it looks like you're doing things right. Hopefully being captive bred will make all the difference and they'll be sturdier and less stressed. I can understand your anxiety though. Young frogs look so tiny and delicate. I'd give it a few more days to see whether the reluctant frog starts hunting.

As far as vendors that don't spray, sometimes you can pick up common houseplants at farmer's markets, or take cuttings from friend's houseplants. Not sure how that would work with orchids though, sorry.

[acpart]

RETF are the only frogs I have (I'm a gecko breeder) and I got older juveniles, but what I've learned so far is that they do seem to be inconsistent in how much they're awake vs. asleep. I also think I've heard that an environment that's too wet can be a problem. I have at least 10 planted habitats (mostly for geckos, with the one frog enclosure) and depend heavily on pothos. It grows quickly to fill the enclosure and a is very hardy. If you get a pothos plant from the nursery and then, once it's grown new shoots in your living room, take cuttings from the new growth, that may work well. I've got pothos in all my enclosures from a single plant that I got from my mother's house 13 years ago.

Aliza

[edie]

not sure how tonight is going to look, but last night they roused between 7 and 8, ate a ton of crickets, took a little snooze, and were awake when i went to bed at 10p. woke up this morning at 6:45a and they were already fast asleep for the day.

contrasting with the day before, when they didn't wake till 1a and 2a respectively, and were still up running around at 7:30a.

the tank is definitely not too wet (made that mistake last time); humidity is consistently between 75 and 85 on one gauge and 60 and 80 on the other. i'm going to assume the truth is somewhere in the middle, which i think we can all live with. this is misting a couple of times a day, morning and night, but the humidity holds regardless. most of the time i end up misting because the air simply feels stale and still, and have to leave the door cracked for a bit to avoid the humidity jumping to 95%+.

until i figure out this humidity thing, i am very reluctant to switch to live plants, since they'll obviously ramp it up even higher.

tonight, my biggest concern is heat. i haven't figured out a way to keep the tank at a consistent temperature without hovering over it, and although right now it's not a disaster because it's not cold here yet, it will be in a few weeks, so i need a resolution pretty quickly, considering i'm out of the house for 12 hours a day. 40 watt bulbs STILL heat it too fast, and the mat i bought for the side of the tank didn't work at all - not sure if it was a lemon or if that's just the way they are. (exo terra heatwave)

RETF are the only frogs I have (I'm a gecko breeder) and I got older juveniles, but what I've learned so far is that they do seem to be inconsistent in how much they're awake vs. asleep. I also think I've heard that an environment that's too wet can be a problem. I have at least 10 planted habitats (mostly for geckos, with the one frog enclosure) and depend heavily on pothos. It grows quickly to fill the enclosure and a is very hardy. If you get a pothos plant from the nursery and then, once it's grown new shoots in your living room, take cuttings from the new growth, that may work well. I've got pothos in all my enclosures from a single plant that I got from my mother's house 13 years ago.

Aliza

[LilyPad]

Welcome and congratulations on your new babies! Do you have a screen top on your tank? If so, I would seriously doubt your hygrometer readings. I actually cover approximately 1/2-2/3 of my retf screen tops with Saran Wrap to keep from losing humidity but still give ventilation. Do NOT continue to leave the door cracked, you'd be amazed by how little space they need to escape. If you do not see condensation on the glass or water setting in the decor, it is not too wet. Are you using an analogue or digital hygrometer? Analogues are notorious for being inaccurate. Once a little moisture gets in them, they give consistently high readings. Digital are better, but even they will go bunk if they get sprayed. I don't even measure my humidity anymore but it helps to at first while you figure out what the normal feel and smell is. I would say the biggest cause of baby red eyed tree frog death is probably dehydration from low humidity. You'd be better off keeping it a touch too high rather than too low.

If you do not have a screen top, it is an absolute must. These frogs need ventilation to stay healthy.

For the plants, just go to Home Depot or a store like that and pick out some tropical plants. Take them out of their pots and shake as much dirt off as possible. Then rinse it. Then soak it for a few minutes in a 10% bleach water mix. Then soak the plants again in clean water with extra dechlorinater mixed in. Following those steps will make the plants safe. I've been doing that for years without a problem. The only thing that doesn't work on is moss. I really find live plants necessary for red eyed tree frog health.

For heating, I use a ceramic heat emitter with a thermostat attached. That way, when it is warm enough, it just shuts off and doesn't overheat. In my opinion, that is the absolute best way to keep sensitive red eyes at a stable temperature.

Keep asking any any questions you might have, we're happy to help! If you want to post pictures, you can use a photo hosting site like photobucket or Flickr. Our photo uploader has been stubbornly down for some time now.

[FrogBone]

As far as your heating/ humidity concerns; Zoomed makes a product that allows you to set a desired Temp and Humidity and it will maintain it. It's called the HygroTherm and all you do is plug it up to a heat source and a humidity source ( fogger/ water feature) and it will kick these on if it detects that it is off.