Calyptocephalella gayi - Cloudy, Bulging Eyes

[smashtoad]

Hi all,

First time poster. I posted this to the ACF forum because these guys live similarly to ACFs, in that they stay in the water almost all the time and medicating should be similar.

These guys (Helmeted Water Toads) were WC from Mark Lucas, and ate well right off the bat. Then one's eyes began to cloud, then the others followed. I have now lost the first one., and would like to keep the others. They are still eating, and have no apparent issues other than their eyes, and the eyes do not appear fuzzy, just clouded and swollen, and not at the same rate.

Being that they are from Chile, I am wondering if a water temp in the mid 70's might just be too hot? Below is a photo of the one that passed away. Any thoughts are appreciated.

[tgampper]

Welcome to the forum!

This frog is closely related to species in the genus Telmatobufo. There isn't much written about their captive care; one source I found recommends the temperature between 72-78 (F).

Cloudy eyes usually indicate an illness or injury. As far as I know there is no easy treatment and a visit to the vet is probably the only choice. I have heard that older frogs develop catarachts and sometimes eyes will cloud up just before skin shedding.

Note: I found this bit of curiosity on a German pipidae site (http://www.pipidae.net/faq_illness.php):

"A German pipid frog keeper told me that her frogs lost the cloudy eyes after treatment with Rabomed from Hobby Dohse. She actually wanted to treat her fish for another illness."

Good luck with your frog

[smashtoad]

Well, here's an update. The largest of the three died. The other two were still eating as of a few days ago, but their eyes have progressed to the same point as the other. I contacted Mark Lucas (who I bought them from) and described the situation. He said that roughly 50% of this species get this at some point after acquisition, but what he has never aquired is a vaild diagnosis.

I have tried Melafix, Lamisil AT (Athlete's Foot Spray - Chytrid remedy), and now Methylene Blue dips (2ml per gallon / 1 hour soak / 3x daily)...all to no avail. In my opinion it is amazing that these things are still alive after all the **** I've put them through.

Today I force fed them each Panacur with an earthworm chaser. I think this is a naturally occurring parasite that simply freaks when stressed. Hopefully Panacur will kill it, but even if it does, I fear their eyes have been scrambled by the bug, whatever it is, and may never be the same.

This is an amazing species of frog, and the fact that they are rarely for sale as wc juvies, and almost never offered as wild caught adults, might just speak to both their sensitive nature in captivity and the reason that there is almost zero captive care requirements to be found on them.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Below is a link to a pic of a healthy adult female. If you consider that the plank boards pictured are most likely 4" wide...this is one aquatic behemoth.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...udiverbera.jpg

[Herpvet]

Hi,

Sorry to hear about your frogs.

Just a couple of thoughts, for what they're worth (I have no experience with this species).

Obviously a post-mortem examination would give the most information, but at least I would advise getting the affected frogs checked by a vet, who might be able to determine whether the appearance is consistent with infection, parasites, cholesterol deposits or anything else.

I have to say one initial suspicion, given the history you describe, would be of something (lacking or excess) in the water being an issue, particularly in a species where good husbandry conditions are not established.

Anyway, good luck with the other two, and please keep us updated with any findings if you get the chance.

Bruce.

Hi all,

First time poster. I posted this to the ACF forum because these guys live similarly to ACFs, in that they stay in the water almost all the time and medicating should be similar.

These guys (Helmeted Water Toads) were WC from Mark Lucas, and ate well right off the bat. Then one's eyes began to cloud, then the others followed. I have now lost the first one., and would like to keep the others. They are still eating, and have no apparent issues other than their eyes, and the eyes do not appear fuzzy, just clouded and swollen, and not at the same rate.

Being that they are from Chile, I am wondering if a water temp in the mid 70's might just be too hot? Below is a photo of the one that passed away. Any thoughts are appreciated.

[smashtoad]

Hi,

Sorry to hear about your frogs.

Just a couple of thoughts, for what they're worth (I have no experience with this species).

Obviously a post-mortem examination would give the most information, but at least I would advise getting the affected frogs checked by a vet, who might be able to determine whether the appearance is consistent with infection, parasites, cholesterol deposits or anything else.

I have to say one initial suspicion, given the history you describe, would be of something (lacking or excess) in the water being an issue, particularly in a species where good husbandry conditions are not established.

Anyway, good luck with the other two, and please keep us updated with any findings if you get the chance.

Bruce.

Thanks Doc,

Mark also had suspicions about fatty deposits from a cricket only diet, but it started so quickly on the first frog that I ruled it out. They had been fed high quality silversides and krill for the most part anyway.

As to water quality, I have changed 75% of their water almost every day. If they are that sensitive to ammonia or nitrites...keeping them is going to be very tough indeed. The one loophole there is that for the first week I used dechlorinated tap water. Our water in Central Indiana is VERY hard and alkaline, which is a possibility I suppose for problems. They have been in RO water for the last two weeks.

Here's another possible hitch: I found one field collection note of Concepcion, Chile. The daily high temperature there this time of year is in the mid 50F. My room is mid 70F during the day. Maybe the water that runs from the Andes to the Pacific is so cold and pure that these guys just cannot tolerate water temps in the 70's??? I doubt it, but nature knocks the teeth out of my doubts and assumptions on a regular basis.

[tgampper]

I found more information on these frogs. There was a study done in 1977. As with most species of large frogs, they tend to be quite aggressive and should not be kept together. It appears that both males and females call. There is an advertisement call and an aggression call. Determining the difference in the call may help you understand the "mood" of the individuals. I would agree with you that the temperature in the 70s may be too high. The study indicated that the water temperature was at 65 degrees (F).

[smashtoad]

Thanks Terry,

I am not surprised...thanks for the info. My only hope that if these frogs make it, they can adapt to water with a daily high of 74F. I cannot afford a chiller right now...the idea just sounds silly anyway, but I know that Telmatobufo need real cool water, I was just hoping this lowland species wouldn't be so demanding.

I have emailed a business in the UK that claims to be selling cb juvies, and they said 74 to 76 is the average temp they keep them at...so who knows.

The frogs finished their 3 days of Panacur yesterday, and although they're eyes are completely white (one of the male's seems to have deflated somewhat), they do seem to be showing increased activity and sensitivity to light and movement around them. Jeez...I just don't know what the heck this is. If it was some sort of eye parasite they carry naturally and the Panacur killed it...I fear their eyes are lost. I sure hope I'm wrong though. Their bodies appear perfect in all aspects save their peepers.

Stay tuned...

[tgampper]

Thanks for the info. I know there isn't much written about the captive care of this species, so you may be blazing a trail for the rest of us. These are awesome frogs and wouldn't mind having a pair myself. I just don't have the room right now. Keep us informed of your progress and good luck to you and your frogs

[smashtoad]

Thanks for the info. I know there isn't much written about the captive care of this species, so you may be blazing a trail for the rest of us. These are awesome frogs and wouldn't mind having a pair myself. I just don't have the room right now. Keep us informed of your progress and good luck to you and your frogs

Yes, they are an amazing species. In behavior, they are the closest thing to a crocodilian I have ever seen in an anuran...if that makes any sense. They don't freak out when you walk in, they just submerge and slowly swim under cover. When they see prey walking on driftwood across they tank, again, they submerge before swimming over and then surface to continue watching for movement. I only saw one hauled out of the water once. They really like the water.

But in my opinion, the one who is blazing the trail (or should be) should be the few dealers that carry them. WC juvies are sold almost every year (I believe) in one or two batches. When I spoke to the guy I purchased mine from, he suggested dietary problems, like fatty lipid somethinerother. Problem is, I had had them less than a week when the first one began to get cloudy eyes...so it was not diet. It is, in my estimation, something triggered by stress that conveniently takes a sufficient amount of time to affect them that they are mostly sold before it sets in. It very well may be that they need very cold, clean water...I just do not know.

Then when I emailed him, "As quickly as this happened, I surprised you've never seen it before." He replied, "I didn't say I hadn't seen it before, roughly 50% of the animals sold get it. What I haven't seen is an accurate diagnosis."

Well, then...considering this killed all three of my frogs in less than a month, and you sell them every year...maybe an accurate diagnosis is in order? Or maybe don't sell them?

The other two are now swimming in circles. Something is in their brain, or has affected the equilibrium somehow. Maybe the Panacur did that.

I am well aware that buying wc animals involves risk. But when only a few dealers are carrying such a unique species, once a year, it is my feeling that they are the first line of defense in determining what the heck is going on, especially when one KNOWS that the problem exists. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. A $100 lesson well learned.

Thanks for all the help everyone. I will work with this species eventually, I just need to find healthy animals. However, if they need water temps in the low 60's...that will be a problem for me.

[tgampper]

Thanks for your comments.

I believe that there are some people who import and sell WC animals are in it for the money and could care less about the animal. Note, I said some not all Large frogs are very popular these days (look at the number of pyxies ans pac-mans being bought).

The dealer who sold you the animals doesn't care what condition they were in. WC animals are often infected with something and a risk for the buyer. If the dealer is really concerned, they would start a CB program and would want to share as much information as possible to prospective buyers.

I strongly believe that concerned keepers need to pave the way for others. You seem to be that kind of person. I am sorry that you experienced a terrible set-back but look at the knowledge you have gained. Move forward, stick with this species, they will appreciate it

[Herpvet]

Hi,

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but I have to repeat that I'd get them checked out by a vet if at all possible. He/she may be able to give a clue as to likely cause from the ppearance, carry out tests if feasible/appropriate, or at least look at trying suitable topical or other medications.

Best wishes,

Bruce.

Thanks Terry,

I am not surprised...thanks for the info. My only hope that if these frogs make it, they can adapt to water with a daily high of 74F. I cannot afford a chiller right now...the idea just sounds silly anyway, but I know that Telmatobufo need real cool water, I was just hoping this lowland species wouldn't be so demanding.

I have emailed a business in the UK that claims to be selling cb juvies, and they said 74 to 76 is the average temp they keep them at...so who knows.

The frogs finished their 3 days of Panacur yesterday, and although they're eyes are completely white (one of the male's seems to have deflated somewhat), they do seem to be showing increased activity and sensitivity to light and movement around them. Jeez...I just don't know what the heck this is. If it was some sort of eye parasite they carry naturally and the Panacur killed it...I fear their eyes are lost. I sure hope I'm wrong though. Their bodies appear perfect in all aspects save their peepers.

Stay tuned...

[smashtoad]

Well...another report. After the panacur...another died. The third, the one I believe to be male, has recovered...but his eyes are still covered in a thick, gelatinous mucous, which I am hoping he will shed off. He also may be blind...though he does seem to react to light in the face.

I know that sounds like he hasn't recovered, but considering the way they acted for the last two weeks...his appetite says recovery. He is now inhaling earthworms like there is no tomorrow. I believe I may have overdosed the smaller female on panacur. She swam in circles whenever she moved for the last several days of her life.

I even saw her attempt to eat an earthworm in this altered neurological state, which was very sad.

I have talked to others keeping these, and mid 70's is working fine for them. I don't know what this was...but it appears that proper dosing with panacur at arrival may be the solution. I guess I should have done that by default, but it looked bacterial or fungal at the onset, so I tried everything but panacur until it was too late.

If he sheds this layer on his eyes, I'll let you guys know.

[tgampper]

Thanks for keeping us informed of your progress. It sounds promising that one will recover. Having an appetite is a good start.