Our frog hasn't been eating, then had odd tensing episode after bath

[jasonm96]

Hey

When horned frogs refuse food it's usually because they're not warm enough. I would take the heat mats off the wall, they're useless this way and probably what's the problem. A low-wattage heat lamp is a better choice and try raising the temps a few degrees.

[monster]

Hello, sorry to hear your frog isn't feeling well. Your temps do need to come up abit but by the sounds of things this isn't because of heat, if it was temps that was making him not want to eat it would have effected him awhile ago if your temps have always been the same. But again your temps should come up to the mid or low 80's for daytime temp and the temps you have now are more of night time temps. I would keep the biggest UTH on the side for the night time heat and get a low wattage bulb for the day. This way at night you can turn off the light and have the UTH heater stay on so it doesn't get to cold. As Jason mentioned they aren't the greatest for a main source of heat when attached to the side because it will only raise the temps a couple degrees, and for these types of frogs its just not normal to them to have heat comeing from underneath them.

By the sounds of his diet it almost sounds like he has way to much fat intake which is not good for him and if he hasn't been getting the right amounts of other nutrients it could cause him to have seizures and other problems. The pinkies are high in fat and so are the superworms, switching to night crawlers or even the dubias would be a lot better for him. Another thing by the sounds of his eyes being very dialated is he could have contracted a parasite from a feeder, more then likely the crickets if this is the case. If you think either of these could be the cause I would bring him to a vet, if it is a parasite ( like worms or something ) you are going to need some meds to help him out.

If the lump on his side is still there you can always give him another honey bath, sometimes this always doesn't work the first night and if has just stopped eating in the past few days as you said it could be that he just has a bad impaction. But out of all honesty the seizure is making me think something else is wrong and IMO when your frog starts doing doing things like seizures its time no matter what to bring him to a vet.

[arlosoft]

Thank you both for your replies. I have called a local vet recommended by a friend, and have an appointment in about 5 hours. I tried to feed her a smaller dubia this morning, then a superworm since I know she likes them, but she didn't eat either.

Jason: I'm afraid i was unclear on the uth last night, I was freaking out a little and didn't notice the wording was bad. In JT's old tank, both the heaters were on adhered under the tank in the back corner. (in this smaller tank, the big one is on the bottom, and the small one is adhered to the side.) In retrospect, i'm sure that temperature was too low in the old tank due to the layer or hydroballs. I was so concerned about losing too much water that I didn't think about how that extra layer would make it harder to raise the temp. In the new tank with just cocofiber substrate, it was noticably wamer this morning. All my thermometers are intended for air contact, but my best guess would be that the top of the coconut was around 80 and when she buried herself partway, the temp by her belly was around 83-85. I will try to pick up a thermal thermometer this evening to get a better read on temp. My concern before was with self regulation. In the old tank, JT was sometimes on top of the UTH, and other times she moved perhaps 8-10 inches from it to the cooler section. I think I got it in my head that she needed to be able to move from the heat like my geckos do, but that's not necessary for pacmans as long as the temps are in the right range, correct?

Cory: When I checked on JT this morning, she was on top of the UTH that's under the tank. she was not fully buried, but maybe halfway down, and the temp was definitely higher. My plan is to hit up our local pet store for some night crawlers after the vet appointment. It still might indicate a parasite, but her pupils dilated only for the duration of her episode. Our geckos were eating the same food--both crickets and superworms, and I haven't noticed any problems with them, but i'm almost hoping it's a parasite because that seems like it might be an easier thing to fix and get her back to normal. On the bright side, i felt her abdomen this morning and didn't feel any masses. I don't see any poop, but hopefully if she had something in there, the honey bath worked.

I will look for a low wattage heat bulb this evening and change the setup to an overhead low wattage bulb as you both suggested, and put the larger heat pad on the side. Thanks again for your help

[jasonm96]

Hi

When using heat mats under tank it is critical to monitor temperatures directly above the mat (under the substrate) as this is where the frog will burrow down. If you monitor the temps of the surface then below the surface is going to be much warmer. It is also very important that heat mats are controlled by a thermostat, especially when used for burrowing species. Like the thermometer probe, the thermostat probe should be used under the substrate for direct control of the mat. An incandescent is preferred and the method cory suggested with putting the mat on the wall for night does work as then the frog will be out on the surface and active to use it

Keep us updated on your frog, hope it's okay

[jasonm96]

Forgot to answer your question: yes a thermal gradient is required. Mats or lights should only cover half of the surface max

[monster]

Hi again, glad to hear you got an appointment with the vet. When they start going into seizures like this its a safe bet they need a vet, and your lucky to catch it right away before the problem gets worse. For the eyes I read that wrong, I thought you meant his were always dialated. For the heat matt on the bottom I would just take it off and use the overhead lighting and keep the other one on the side for nighttime heat. Even though its suggested to be ok in my eyes this is only if you have no other options. It is very unnatural for them, they bury to cool off not to get warm. I know you said you were going to put it on the side just thought I would throw in there in case you were thinking about leaving on the bottom. And again if you could get him on lower fatty diet it would be very beneficial for him, lots of people will do pinkies once month and use the nightcrawlers/ dubias/ crickets as a staple. And one more thing now that I think about it, when did you move him from the old tank to this one. If it was just before this happened the eating could just be stress from the move and hes needing time to adjust, just know if that would cause him to have a mild seizure.

[arlosoft]

Hey guys, wanted to update you on the vet appt. So apparently the calcium +d3 and wasn't enough, and she's in the early stages of metabolic bone disease. The vet saw evidence of rubber jaw, the pain from which appears to be what was causing her to tense up. (she had another episode today when I tried to give her food slightly before the appt. she spit it out, then tensed up.) She's back from her travel cage into the 10 gallon, with a Reptisun bulb a little above her cage. I also picked up a thermometer with a probe, so I can measure surface temps, and it's keeping it between 84 and 85 degrees. She's going to be getting that during the daytime, and I've attached a UTH to the side of the tank to regulate night time temps. We picked up some red wigglers today, and will be trying to get her to eat those since they're a bit softer than the other things. She had a few superworms a couple days ago, but if we can't get her to eat something in the next several days, we're going to follow up with the vet. He said a week or so was a comfortable amount of time before we had to address her not eating.

The plan in a month or so when she's hopefully feeling better is to stick with a mix of earthworms, dubias, and crickets, with an occasional mealworm and maybe a pinkie every 3-4 weeks or so as a treat. We also changed the gutloading food for the feeders. We were using a gutloading gel, but picked up fluker's high calcium cricket diet today on the vet's recommendation. I'm not sure as to the reasoning, but I figured it couldn't' hurt.

As for the tank change, we were actually in the process of doing that last night when she had the episode. We had the 10-gallon prepped and ready, but she hadn't been in it when it happened.

Thank you both for all your help. I learned several things I didn't know, and can now get her on the way to recovery.