Our frog hasn't been eating, then had odd tensing episode after bath

[arlosoft]

Summary: Our frog, J.T., usually eats every other day but has had little to no appetite the past 5 days or so. The last time I tried to feed her, she spit out the superworm and worked her mouth. Her tongue was visible at the side of her mouth. We thought she might need to use the restroom, so we gave her a honey bath then a bath without the honey to rinse it off. As we picked her up out of the second bath and I was looking at her front leg for nuptial pads, she tensed. My fiancé likened her reaction to a seizure without tremors. I describe the episode in greater detail in #15

We're a little concerned about her appetite, but the episode tonight was terrifying, and we haven't been able to figure out what it is so far. We want to figure out what's going on and prevent it from happening again.

1. Size of enclosure - 20 gallon, in the process of moving her into a 10-gallon tonight

2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences: Just J.T.

3. Humidity: approximately 80%

4. Temperature: daytime, 75-79, nighttime approximately 75.

5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish: dechlorinated water (using brita filter) to expand coconut fiber and for water dish (she doesn’t go in it), distilled water for misting.

6. Materials used for substrate – coconut fiber (this was on top of a single layer of hydro balls and a layer of mesh over them. We live in the desert southwest, so losing humidty is a problem, so we poured water on the hydro balls to make sure there’s sufficient moisture in the vivarium. The new cage has deeper coconut fiber, but no hydro balls. I mist her twice a day now, which is sufficient to keep the humidity up.

7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv. – 2 of the plastic hanging plants made by exo-terra or a similar company. We put them in corners of the vivarium to give her a little cover. She likes to hide just backed into one. Rinsed them in dechlorinated water prior to putting in tank. Also have a decorative skull in the back of the larger tank as decoration. It was also made for terrariums, don’t recall the brand.

8. Main food source – have recently been feeding superworms, perhaps for the last 3-4 weeks. We feed her a thawed pinkie every 1-2 weeks. We have occasionally fed her a small dubia, but only a total of about 4 or 5 total. Prior to the superworms, we fed mostly crickets.

9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often) -- We dust the worms with as much calcium+d3 and vitamin powder as will stick (which isn’t a ton) 1-2 times per week. She eats approximately every other day, so it averages every feeding to every other feeding. The pinkie holds the powder better, so that’s where she gets the significant intake of calcium/vitamins.

10. Lighting – no direct lighting over her vivarium, but we have a 5-arm floor lamp with CFL bulbs that provide ambient light approximately half the day. (It’s about 4 feet from her, and behind a wall-mounted tv so it’s not too glaring.)

11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure. - We have 2 UTHs for her. One was for about a 10-gallon tank, the other was listed as a micro UTH that we added to supplement the heat. Both are in the back left corner of the tank.

12. When is the last time he/she ate – 3 days ago. Ate a couple super worms. Prior to that, she ate about 5 days ago, and was eating 5-10 at a time.

13. Have you found poop lately – approximately 5 days ago.

14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine) - I am having issues getting a picture to upload. They were on my phone, so I emailed them to myself, then adjusted the width/height so they fit the requirements, but I can't get them to upload in .jpg or .png format. I keep getting the error 'Today.png - This is not a valid image file.'
She generally looks good. We don't notice anything out of the ordinary with her appearance.

15. Describe frog's symptoms and/or recent physical changes; to include it's ventral/belly area. – She hasn’t had much appetite recently. I tried to feed her a superworm yesterday morning. She grabbed it, held the first bit in her mouth for 10-15 seconds, then spit it out. Her tongue was visible on the left side of her mouth for a minute or two. She looked like she had something somewhat hard in her belly on her left side yesterday, but we didn’t notice anything today. We decided to give her a honey bath today in case she had to poop. Chin depth, warm (~85 degree) water with 2-3 drops of honey in a small tote (7” wide x 14” long. Kept her in it for about 15 minutes (she peed immediately, but no poop), then picked her up and replaced the water with fresh warm water without honey and did another soak in that. Our last step was we were going to gently pour water over her to get some of the dried skin off her face—near nostrils. When my fiancé picked her up that last time –before we poured any water, she suddenly tensed. Her legs went straight back and she closed her eyes tightly and her body was rigid. She opened her eyes and her pupils were dilated— completely black, none of the gold around her eye was visible. She started opening and closing her mouth rapidly, and her tongue was visible on the left side of her mouth. She didn’t make any sounds during this process. When her body stopped tensing, she was still opening and closing her mouth another 20-30 seconds, and her eyes still appeared bulged. The entire episode lasted about 1-2 minutes.

16. How old is the frog – about 6-7 months

17. How long have you owned him/her – about 5 months

18. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred – captive bred

19. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats – mostly superworms, with pinkies as treats. After reading the forums, we are planning to switch to mostly nightcrawlers soon.

20. How often the frog is handled – rarely. We feed by tongs every other day or so, but pick her up only when working on her cage.

21. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area – low traffic. She’s near the door of our computer room. No traffic from 8pm – 7am, then I mist her around 7am. After that, usually no traffic till 3pm, then we are mostly in the room till 8pm.

22. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc): - we pick up poo whenever we see it. Replace the coconut fiber about once per month, sometimes switching the stuff in the corner where she tends to hang out every few weeks.

[jasonm96]

Hey

When horned frogs refuse food it's usually because they're not warm enough. I would take the heat mats off the wall, they're useless this way and probably what's the problem. A low-wattage heat lamp is a better choice and try raising the temps a few degrees.

[monster]

Hello, sorry to hear your frog isn't feeling well. Your temps do need to come up abit but by the sounds of things this isn't because of heat, if it was temps that was making him not want to eat it would have effected him awhile ago if your temps have always been the same. But again your temps should come up to the mid or low 80's for daytime temp and the temps you have now are more of night time temps. I would keep the biggest UTH on the side for the night time heat and get a low wattage bulb for the day. This way at night you can turn off the light and have the UTH heater stay on so it doesn't get to cold. As Jason mentioned they aren't the greatest for a main source of heat when attached to the side because it will only raise the temps a couple degrees, and for these types of frogs its just not normal to them to have heat comeing from underneath them.

By the sounds of his diet it almost sounds like he has way to much fat intake which is not good for him and if he hasn't been getting the right amounts of other nutrients it could cause him to have seizures and other problems. The pinkies are high in fat and so are the superworms, switching to night crawlers or even the dubias would be a lot better for him. Another thing by the sounds of his eyes being very dialated is he could have contracted a parasite from a feeder, more then likely the crickets if this is the case. If you think either of these could be the cause I would bring him to a vet, if it is a parasite ( like worms or something ) you are going to need some meds to help him out.

If the lump on his side is still there you can always give him another honey bath, sometimes this always doesn't work the first night and if has just stopped eating in the past few days as you said it could be that he just has a bad impaction. But out of all honesty the seizure is making me think something else is wrong and IMO when your frog starts doing doing things like seizures its time no matter what to bring him to a vet.

[arlosoft]

Thank you both for your replies. I have called a local vet recommended by a friend, and have an appointment in about 5 hours. I tried to feed her a smaller dubia this morning, then a superworm since I know she likes them, but she didn't eat either.

Jason: I'm afraid i was unclear on the uth last night, I was freaking out a little and didn't notice the wording was bad. In JT's old tank, both the heaters were on adhered under the tank in the back corner. (in this smaller tank, the big one is on the bottom, and the small one is adhered to the side.) In retrospect, i'm sure that temperature was too low in the old tank due to the layer or hydroballs. I was so concerned about losing too much water that I didn't think about how that extra layer would make it harder to raise the temp. In the new tank with just cocofiber substrate, it was noticably wamer this morning. All my thermometers are intended for air contact, but my best guess would be that the top of the coconut was around 80 and when she buried herself partway, the temp by her belly was around 83-85. I will try to pick up a thermal thermometer this evening to get a better read on temp. My concern before was with self regulation. In the old tank, JT was sometimes on top of the UTH, and other times she moved perhaps 8-10 inches from it to the cooler section. I think I got it in my head that she needed to be able to move from the heat like my geckos do, but that's not necessary for pacmans as long as the temps are in the right range, correct?

Cory: When I checked on JT this morning, she was on top of the UTH that's under the tank. she was not fully buried, but maybe halfway down, and the temp was definitely higher. My plan is to hit up our local pet store for some night crawlers after the vet appointment. It still might indicate a parasite, but her pupils dilated only for the duration of her episode. Our geckos were eating the same food--both crickets and superworms, and I haven't noticed any problems with them, but i'm almost hoping it's a parasite because that seems like it might be an easier thing to fix and get her back to normal. On the bright side, i felt her abdomen this morning and didn't feel any masses. I don't see any poop, but hopefully if she had something in there, the honey bath worked.

I will look for a low wattage heat bulb this evening and change the setup to an overhead low wattage bulb as you both suggested, and put the larger heat pad on the side. Thanks again for your help

[jasonm96]

Hi

When using heat mats under tank it is critical to monitor temperatures directly above the mat (under the substrate) as this is where the frog will burrow down. If you monitor the temps of the surface then below the surface is going to be much warmer. It is also very important that heat mats are controlled by a thermostat, especially when used for burrowing species. Like the thermometer probe, the thermostat probe should be used under the substrate for direct control of the mat. An incandescent is preferred and the method cory suggested with putting the mat on the wall for night does work as then the frog will be out on the surface and active to use it

Keep us updated on your frog, hope it's okay

[jasonm96]

Forgot to answer your question: yes a thermal gradient is required. Mats or lights should only cover half of the surface max