Burrowing Whites?

[fxrrestfires]

I have 2 Whites Tree Frogs, one is much larger and confident whereas the other is quite small and shy. They haven't been sexed but I think they are both male. This morning I noticed the smaller one sat on the floor in a shallow well that it had made. I know burrowing isn't good! The warmest part of the tank is currently 27.2 degrees Celsius and the humidity is 54%.

Does anyone know why this might be happening and what I can do to help?
*they're currently on orchid bark but will be changed to coco fibre this week*

[elly]

That's strange. The temperature sounds good. So does the humidity, but it may be a little dry for the temperature? Are there many dark places to hide in the tank? If he was just sitting in a shallow well, that's better than trying to dig deep and cover himself in dirt, at least.

[fxrrestfires]

That's strange. The temperature sounds good. So does the humidity, but it may be a little dry for the temperature? Are there many dark places to hide in the tank? If he was just sitting in a shallow well, that's better than trying to dig deep and cover himself in dirt, at least.

Yeah, since I found him like that I moved one of the logs to make a small cave so he can hide comfortably. I bought a fogging system that I'll install tomorrow though. I'm thinking that since I'm currently using a spray bottle, the humidity might not be consistent enough? Fingers crossed it brings him back to himself!

[LilyPad]

How are you measuring the humidity? If it's just the analogue one, it may be a bit off. Do you have live plants? That would help maintain the humidity between mistings. Although, white's are pretty destructive when it comes to live plants.

[fxrrestfires]

How are you measuring the humidity? If it's just the analogue one, it may be a bit off. Do you have live plants? That would help maintain the humidity between mistings. Although, white's are pretty destructive when it comes to live plants.

It's an analogue at the moment but I'll be fitting a digital hygrometer tomorrow! I've avoided live plants mainly because this is my first time keeping frogs, and also because I did read somewhere that the species is destructive like you said. I'm also changing the substrate back to coco fibre; I changed to orchid bark for cleanliness but it's actually less practical for me and seems to hold less humidity.

[LilyPad]

There is also a chance that they'll ingest the orchid bark, leading to impaction. So it is good that you're changing it. I used a digital hygrometer but only put the probe in for a few minutes at a time to measure the humidity so it didn't get water trapped in it and cause poor readings. Eventually, you'll learn by feel and smell what the level is at. He's adorable though!

ETA: If he seems a little nervous, it might be a good idea to cover 3 sides of the tank to help him feel more comfortable.

[jasonm96]

Few questions

What size of tank is it? How is heat provided? What's the ambient air temperature away from the basking spot? What's being used to monitor temps? What temp does it drop to at night?

[fxrrestfires]

Another update; I've fitted a digital hygrometer so the humidity reading is more accurate. He's just crawled out from his hiding place and he's sat by the water bowl and his eyelids aren't looking right. Getting more concerned each day. Is it worth a vet visit?

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[fxrrestfires]

[Diver]

First thing to do is split them up, a considerable size difference between two frogs if often enough on it's own for the smaller frog to be intimidated, stressed or bullied to the point where they die.

[fxrrestfires]

Few questions

What size of tank is it? How is heat provided? What's the ambient air temperature away from the basking spot? What's being used to monitor temps? What temp does it drop to at night?

It's 45x45x45cm tank, heat is through a heat bulb. The ambient air is about 27 degrees celsius during the day and 23 at night. And I use a digital thermometer to monitor temperature.

[fxrrestfires]

First thing to do is split them up, a considerable size difference between two frogs if often enough on it's own for the smaller frog to be intimidated, stressed or bullied to the point where they die.

What can I keep him in? I've got a faunarium, but obviously heat and humidity would be hard to monitor without another full set up...

[jasonm96]

The problem is your conditions are quite good, so it's hard to realise the problem. I would however raise the basking spot to 29C during the day if possible and house adults in a larger 60cm high tank. Although the tank you have is the minimum, I would really consider the 60x45x60cm Exo terra for long term housing. A faunarium wouldn't be suitable for temporary housing though, due to the problems with lighting and heating. What's the difference in their size? Something to take into consideration is hygrometers sometimes give out innacurate readings of humidity, especially if you use low quality ones or if it's near the heat source. So although you may think the humidity is 50%, it could be higher and this can cause problems. As a rule, mist the tank around once per day, no more than twice usually and allow it to be slightly moist but never wet or too dry. Also too low will also cause them too borrow, as well as too hot or cold temperatures. So always use the most accurate instruments and take care where you place them, so you get accurate readings. This is only my advice however, and if you have a book or two try and follow them to the word and see if it helps.

[fxrrestfires]

The problem is your conditions are quite good, so it's hard to realise the problem. I would however raise the basking spot to 29C during the day if possible and house adults in a larger 60cm high tank. Although the tank you have is the minimum, I would really consider the 60x45x60cm Exo terra for long term housing. A faunarium wouldn't be suitable for temporary housing though, due to the problems with lighting and heating. What's the difference in their size? Something to take into consideration is hygrometers sometimes give out innacurate readings of humidity, especially if you use low quality ones or if it's near the heat source. So although you may think the humidity is 50%, it could be higher and this can cause problems. As a rule, mist the tank around once per day, no more than twice usually and allow it to be slightly moist but never wet or too dry. Also too low will also cause them too borrow, as well as too hot or cold temperatures. So always use the most accurate instruments and take care where you place them, so you get accurate readings. This is only my advice however, and if you have a book or two try and follow them to the word and see if it helps.

The long term plan is still to get a larger tank. (This was a really helpful comment so thank you!) The size difference is quite significant I'd say; one is about 4inches snout to vent whereas the other is about 2 inches. They were housed together by the previous owner and both looked very healthy in the images I was sent before buying them. You're right it is really difficult to pinpoint the exact problem, but everyone's comments are helping and getting me a bit closer to fixing the problem! 😊

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[jasonm96]

Hopefully we can get it sorted. That is quite a difference in size. I have kept frogs together where there has been about an inch difference, but not as great as that. If they're both the same age, the larger is probably a female and the smaller being a male. If the previous owner housed them fine together and had no issues (or did they) then I don't see why just now it would be the problem. On the other hand if the owner got them from babies or juveniles the difference in size may have just came now from them reaching adulthood. It could be the stress of adjusting from travelling to your hands and getting put in a new set up that is causing stress. How long have you had them for?

[fxrrestfires]

Hopefully we can get it sorted. That is quite a difference in size. I have kept frogs together where there has been about an inch difference, but not as great as that. If they're both the same age, the larger is probably a female and the smaller being a male. If the previous owner housed them fine together and had no issues (or did they) then I don't see why just now it would be the problem. On the other hand if the owner got them from babies or juveniles the difference in size may have just came now from them reaching adulthood. It could be the stress of adjusting from travelling to your hands and getting put in a new set up that is causing stress. How long have you had them for?

I got them on April 2nd so 2 months now. It was from an reptile and amphibian shop, the set up they had there looked good and all the other animals seemed healthy. With the size difference I think it's age related rather than gender; they both croak for a long time every day without fail!

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[fxrrestfires]

Just to put a visual on the size difference, here's the pair together!