trouble with 4 month old pacman frog, sticking legs out stiff

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I have about a 4 month old albino pacman frog, and he has been doing very well up until about 2 weeks ago. he stopped eating by himself, so I was gently assisting him by opening his mouth and placing the dubia roach inside, and then he'd swallow it on his own. I would only feed him about one bug a day like this, sometimes maybe two.

just a couple days ago I dug him up from the substrate and he was very stiff, with his legs out as if he was paralyzed and he wasn't moving. I gently touched his sides and rubbed him a bit and he did wake up and return his legs to normal. my first thought was that maybe he could be impacted, so I started to give him slightly warm soaks daily. yesterday, he made a pretty decent sized poop in his enclosure, and was acting a lot better in terms of behavior, he was moving about more and no more stiffness.

but then today I dug him up as usual for feeding time and he was even stiffer than before, his legs were stuck straight out like he couldn't moved them and his eyes were shut. I honestly thought he was dead and I was about to cry. I gently spritzed him with water and he woke back up again and eventually put his legs back to normal.

I don't think this is normal behavior and I'm getting very worried for him, any input is helpful but I honestly think I might need to take him to a vet. I just wanted to get some opinions on it first.

info about his enclosure:
temps are 70-80 F
humidity is around 60-70%, I mist him twice a day, one morning one night
he's got a water dish though he doesn't seem to use it very often, I don't use tap water AT ALL for him
substrate is eco earth, there's a good few inches for him to bury in
I have some spaghnum moss in the enclosure to help keep humidity, but I don't feed him in the enclosure so I don't think he's eaten any moss
I received him from a breeder in Florida named Alfredo, I looked up things about him and nobody seemed to have any complaints from what I saw

edit:
I don't know if it's relevant at all but I do have two american toads in my home as well. I've had them for years now

[jasonm96]

Hey. Your conditions seem great. I would make sure to keep the frog in the high 70s to low 80s during the day. Make sure the heat source provides adequate, usable heat, such as downwards by a heat lamp or ceramic. I used a heat mat on the wall as recommend by some for a while but realised this did not work well. Use a digital thermometer to measure temps, analogue are not the best. It sounds to me like maybe the frog has tried to aestivate. Along with the stiff posture, was there was any signs of cocooning/dried skin? Although the humidity of 60-70% should be fine for cranwell's horned frogs, I've found several hygrometers to fail after a short period of time. A good test is to make sure the substrate is moist, not dry and not wet. What size of tank and how often do you change substrate? I personally would not take to a vet unless there is one that has a good knowledge or reference on amphibians. The best thing to do is fine a good source of info on the species (I've found AVS chacoan horned frogs by Philippe de Vosjoli to be the best reference) follow by the book to make sure conditions are correct

[monster]

Hi, what brand of vitamins are you using and what is your dusting schedule? it sounds almost like he could have a bad case of MBD or it could be some kind of neurological problem which I don't think is very common but the odd frog does end up having them. I really think you may want to find a vet, it doesn't sound good to me. Also what do use for water if you don't use tap water?

[jasonm96]

I don't think MBD would cause problems when young just yet but show up with older frogs fed or kept on improper diets or conditions. I would dust every feed with young frogs though, with a high qualitiy supplement such as Repashy. Water could be a factor but if the OP has maintained toads then I'd imagine he or she would know the standard water needed for amphibians

[monster]

If the op has had his frog for 4 months and hasn't being giving proper calcium the signs would be starting to show, the first few months are the most crucial point of there life for the calcium because all the bones are growing and strengthening and because they have such a fast growth rate also. And the frog would actually be older then 4 months because you have to consider the time its spent with the breeder. Not saying this is what the problem is because they can be doing it all right because it was never mentioned.

[jasonm96]

That's definitely true, especially for horned frogs but I would expect obvious symptoms to show at a later age when the damage is done but I'm not 100% sure on this. If I were breeding them I would let them eat their siblings, may sound bad but I'd imagine this would happen in the wild and would provide a very good source of calcium and D3

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first of all thank you everyone for replying! I also went out and got a new water dish and he has actually been sitting in it for some time now, when he NEVER used to soak in it before. I always just made sure to spritz him with the spray bottle or to place him in the bowl himself. but he actually got into the bowl for the first time and soaked today! anyway I'll try to answer everything I was asked, please let me know if I forgot to reply to a question that was asked!

@monster
I use Repashy Calcium Plus for dusting, and I usually dust every few feedings, but after reading the replies it's apparent I need to be doing that more! so I will definitely up the dusting from now on. and yes I do say ABOUT 4 months because he did spend some time with the breeder as well before being shipped to me. but I've had him now for about 4 months.

also, for water for my amphibians I use bottled water only!

@jasonm96
I'm wondering if the humidity meter has gone bad because it doesn't move much anymore. I think I will get a new one asap. I usually keep the substrate damp, but not totally flooded of course.

I use digital thermometers for all of my herps. the analogue ones just. really don't give accurate readings in my experience and the experience of many others I've read.

his skin does get a bit dry, though I thought that was because he wasn't soaking adequately. as I mentioned at the beginning, I changed water bowls and he's been soaking for awhile now so hopefully the dry skin will improve, unless you do think it would have to do with him trying to aestivate.

[Heatheranne]

So, I've read through most of the posts, but somewhat quickly and did not memorize all of the data.

I would definitely said the same... Low blood calcium levels. Twitching, tremors, inability to move with coordination, progressing to seizures and paralysis. What is not often mentioned is that low calcium affects all muscle function, including smooth muscle. When smooth muscle function is limited, peristalsis in the gut slows down, thereby decreasing digestion, and appetite.

Proper heat and humidity levels will also affect digestion. Proper heat aides in digestion. Hypothermia will decrease the rate of digestion and the food lingers longer in the belly, causing bloating. The best temps for Pacman frogs are up around 80'F during the day and no less than mid to upper 70's at night. This can be accomplished with heat lamps and heat pads. Pads should never be placed on the glass bottoms, due to the risk of burns. Place heat pads on side walls. My pacs have heated corners... Heat pads on two walls in one corner.


Low humidity can lead to dehydration and deceased internal fluid, thereby making food more solid and difficult to lubricate or pass. Humidity should be around 75-80%, with moist substrate, but not muddy wet. A shallow water bowl of fresh water should be provided and water should be changed daily. Pacs will soak and absorb (drink) as needed. I soak my pacs twice a week no matter what, just after a meal. They will learn to enjoy their soaks. Water should be lukewarm at 80'F. Water should be dechlorinated. Chlorine, chloramine, and heavy metals will cause toxicity and need to be reversed/neutralized. Some bottled water contains chlorine or chloramines. Distilled water is okay for misting but should never be used to moisten substrates or for soaking. Distilled water has no minerals, and is hypotonic, and can actually pull electrolytes out through the frogs skin, leading to deficiencies. Dechlorinated tap water has minerals needed for balance. Repashy with calcium plus is a great vitamin and provides necessary vitamin and mineral needs. It is recommended to use a calcium with vitamin D3 supplement I various days as well. I use Repashy 2x/week on young pacs, and Repcal calcium/vita D3 2-3x/week, but not on the same days as the Repashy. My adults eat less often and I rotate back and forth.

Another reason for lack of appetite can be intestinal parasites. They cause inflammation of the intestines, bloating, and discomfort. The symptoms are lack of appetite, bloating, lethargy, and runny stools. Feces testing can be done to determine the parasite. Most parasites can be treated by a vet with Panacur, Metronidizole, or Ivermectin. Proper dosing is done by weight.

[Heatheranne]

Good luck!

My suggestions are to get your tank settings as close to perfect as possible, keep up on the supplements, and have a feces test done. Walmart sells night crawlers which can be cut to size. Be sure they have no dyes or scents added.

[Heatheranne]

Oh, forgot to mention...
Calcium is not well absorbed without vitamin D3. Be sure your calcium has it .

[jasonm96]

Heather, heat pads will not burn frogs when used in conjunction with a thermostat like they should be. Only heat pads that are unstatted or set at the wrong temp will, this will apply to them being used on the wall as well. Also proper monitoring of temps is essential, which should be done by a digital thermometer directly ontop of the mat and not an analogue thermometer. Also, if conditions are kept dirty and the frog stays on the mat the frog may develop an infection that might look like a burn (though I've never seen this) frequently cleaning out the burrow and changing substrate as needed will prevent this. I just wanted to clear that up because keepers that use them correctly shouldn't worry about their frogs being burned. That being said, above heat sources are better because it's more natural and they warm the ambient air temperature, so are best for cold houses.

You don't need to use calcium plus with a different supplement for D3 btw, it has it in it The normal one has medium levels, which I the one I use and there's also a high and low one too.

[Heatheranne]

Heather, heat pads will not burn frogs when used in conjunction with a thermostat like they should be. Only heat pads that are unstatted or set at the wrong temp will, this will apply to them being used on the wall as well. Also proper monitoring of temps is essential, which should be done by a digital thermometer directly ontop of the mat and not an analogue thermometer. Also, if conditions are kept dirty and the frog stays on the mat the frog may develop an infection that might look like a burn (though I've never seen this) frequently cleaning out the burrow and changing substrate as needed will prevent this. I just wanted to clear that up because keepers that use them correctly shouldn't worry about their frogs being burned. That being said, above heat sources are better because it's more natural and they warm the ambient air temperature, so are best for cold houses.

You don't need to use calcium plus with a different supplement for D3 btw, it has it in it The normal one has medium levels, which I the one I use and there's also a high and low one too.

If your frog has symptoms of tetany than he needs more calcium. Whether it be your dusting schedule or supplement choice... Tetany is an absolute sign of deficiency.

True, if your vitamin had calcium and vitamin D3 and your frog shows no signs of deficiency and is in good health, no excess calcium is needed. However, I have seen over the years several frogs with other deficiencies when not using a vitamin supplement in coordination with calcium/vita D3.

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thank you everyone for the help! I will be getting a heat pad very soon (with thermostat of course) and I will stick it on the side in one of the corners of the tank like my toad tank is. I am going to leave him be for the next few days and not try to feed him by force, but I will keep up the calcium soaks so he gets proper calcium.

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btw I should only need the small UTH right?

[Heatheranne]

Here is a good article about electrolytes and minerals. It is difficult to find articles pertaining to only amphibians. This article is human based, but describes each function coordinated by different electrolytes and minerals. All living animals need varying amounts of such for bodily functions. Levels of necessity vary per species and size. This article is listed only to help understand the needs and their functions in general.

Enjoy the reading .

Keep in mind, some electrolytes can pass through porous membranes such as blood vessels, cell walls, and skin. Level vary on cell types and skin types. Therefore in amphibians, electrolytes are taken in via diet, and absorbed through their skin. Frogs are highly absorptive. Some minerals are insoluble in fluids and will not "absorb" through osmosis or soaking. They need to be ingested. Levels of absorption are also variant with water levels. Some electrolytes "follow" water. The goal is an overall proper balance.



http://www.builtlean.com/2012/11/28/electrolytes/

[Heatheranne]

How much do you need to increase the temp?
Some have thermostats, many do not. If it does, any size that fits the area and can be adjusted to the temp you need is fine. If not, read the instructions to see about how much each pad will raise the temp and choose which will be best for your needs. We hear our whole frog room to 75'F and add the small pads.

[jasonm96]

You want one that will cover one third and up to half of the length of the tank. Go for carbon cloth mats, not printed as these are safer. I think in your country you can get ones under the brand cobra, these are cloth. Keep in mind if your room isn't already heated, a heat mat on the wall may not supply enough heat. Thermostats are bought separate but some mats have cut offs, though a thermostat should always be used anyway.

[monster]

I use heatmatts on my tanks and as Jason stated and I will agree that when on the side they don't raise the temp to half there potential. The trick I learned and it works like a charm is you want to build a 3 sided wall around the tank to help hold the heat in so it doesn't just go up into the air. So you would build a wall as high as the tank around the back and 2 sides, it almost acts the same as if it was on the bottom in between a table and the tank. I keep my frog room in the winter at 72f and doing it this way im able to get the 82f. If your having a hard time pictureing what I mean let me know and I will put a picture up a little later.

[jasonm96]

You can also put a polyesterne sheet on the back of the mat, it directs the heat back in to the tank. My concern is that in order to raise the temp a lot the mat would have to get very hot, so the frog could get burned by the side glass heated. When used below this is not a problem because the floor bottom glass can be controlled to the desired temp. Some people may turn the thermostat high to get the surface temps warm but this isn't a necessary as the frog will burrow and get heated on the glass which will sit at the temperature set but it can also select an area away from the mat if needed. What is it you mean cory, have you got 3 mats?

[monster]

No, the 3 walls holds the heat and lets it travel around all 3 sides so its actually heating the glass on all sides. I leave about a half inch opening at each end so the air flow can go in one side and escape from the other so it pushes the warm air around the tank. My suggestion to anyone if they needed 3 matts would be save yourself the money and find a different way to heat your tank because this way obviously isn't working. Im editing because I didn't really answer you question, the 3 walls are made out of that cheap thin particle board stuff that is put into dresser drawers as the bottom. Its really easy to cut holes and stuff into for wires and such to that need to go through it.