Pacman Trouble

[bman0761]

Short Version first:

i bought my son a pacman for christmas. i assume the majority of care since it can be difficult for him alone. the set up is simple, ecoearth, aa small waater dish, moss, and a half log. i live in pa so i have heater on the bottom of the tank which takes up approx. 1/3 of the spacee plus a 40w bulb for additional heat. temp stays around 80 throughout the day and we try to keep the humidity around 60.
at first the frog seemed healthy and ate every day or every other day. we clean the tank every saturday, a 10g tank. thr trouble staretd after the 2ndd cleaning. we use hot water only and dry thouroughly before we put the frog back in. once placed back in the tank the frog never moved. for 2 days it sat on top of the soil until one morning we found him dead. we noticed prior to cleaning he sat for long periods of time in his water dish so i assumed it may have over hydrated and became ill. so i took him back to the pet store and they gave me another.
This frog was much smaller but far more aactive and ate more regularly. after 2 weeks same thing. today we cleaned the tank and put the frog back in and he began to bury, nothing seemed out of the norm. we went to dinner and came back to find him stiff and sticking straight out of the ecoearth. i tried to spray him to see if he would move with no luck. after 15 minutes of watching and trying to verify any sign of life we were sure he was dead. my son and i are very upset. the little guys are so cute and for the life of me i cant figure out what we are doing wrong. i am going to return the frog tomorrow but refrain from getting another until i can find out what is wrong.
any advice or ideas on what is going on? both times they frog died within a day of cleaning out the tank.

[jasonm96]

Sad to hear. Are you de-chlorinating the tap water? Have a look at the pet store and check their set ups, maybe they're not keeping them right.

[bman0761]

Sad to hear. Are you de-chlorinating the tap water? Have a look at the pet store and check their set ups, maybe they're not keeping them right.

Yes i should have mentioned that as well. i use bottled or drops when i use tap water.

[jasonm96]

Were they collected from the store or shipped to you? Horned frogs are so hardy that it's odd that you're having this problem and I really would consider going elsewhere for your frogs

[bman0761]

Were they collected from the store or shipped to you? Horned frogs are so hardy that it's odd that you're having this problem and I really would consider going elsewhere for your frogs

both where purchased from the same petco store. i also find it hard to believe. after the first one died i became neurotic about how perfect the enviroment was during the 2nd, temp, humidity, water cleanliness, feeding, everything. we also do not handle the frogs unless we move them to clean the tank so they are basically left alone aside from being looked at.

[jasonm96]

I've heard bad stuff about petco, although I can't confirm myself, as I live in Scotland. The thing is, even in incorrect conditions, they would still survive for quite a long time before showing signs of bad health. I cannot emphasize enough how hardy these frogs are in captivity and it comes from the fact they endure harsh conditions in the wild. So what I think has happened is that you got unhealthy frogs and from bringing them home stressed them out enough to tip them over the edge but if they were healthy frogs they would have been fine. The best thing to do is buy them from a breeder or a reputable pet store that specializes in amphibians but don't allow this experience to put you off them.

[bman0761]

I've heard bad stuff about petco, although I can't confirm myself, as I live in Scotland. The thing is, even in incorrect conditions, they would still survive for quite a long time before showing signs of bad health. I cannot emphasize enough how hardy these frogs are in captivity and it comes from the fact they endure harsh conditions in the wild. So what I think has happened is that you got unhealthy frogs and from bringing them home stressed them out enough to tip them over the edge but if they were healthy frogs they would have been fine. The best thing to do is buy them from a breeder or a reputable pet store that specializes in amphibians but don't allow this experience to put you off them.

Yea, i have been able to keep everything from fish to children alive so far if we do get another it will certainly be from a breeder. i do not want to blame petco, i just dont know whats going on. both died at about 2 weeks after purchase.

[jasonm96]

I'm sure you'll have no problems keep these frogs then, they make one of the best pet frogs. 2 weeks after purchase is ridiculous (the frogs must have been in bad condition from the store). I bought mine from a store that kept it wrong and it was underweight and stunted in growth and now a year later it's doing well and jumps to eat my finger on a regular basis.

[LauraS]

Just checking since you're using a UTH under the tank. Are you checking the temps under the substrate or on top?

[jasonm96]

Just checking since you're using a UTH under the tank. Are you checking the temps under the substrate or on top?

A good question and I totally missed that he said he was using a UHT. Anyone should definitely keep an eye on the temps under the substrate, as that's where the frog will burrow to. If you take a measuring from the top it will be cooler and it could be extremely hot under, so the frog would burn itself burrowing. I don't believe a UHT is only getting temps up to 80f, I've used one unstated to see how high it gets and it goes around 100f. This could possibly be the cause of death! Remember to use a digital thermometer as well, of course, as analogue won't measure the temp of the mat and just the ambient air temperature. Also, never heat a tank on both direction (UHT and heat bulb on top) Heat should only come one direction or it may confuse the frog. Finally, a thermostat is a must with UHT, especially for burrowing animals.

[bman0761]

A good question and I totally missed that he said he was using a UHT. Anyone should definitely keep an eye on the temps under the substrate, as that's where the frog will burrow to. If you take a measuring from the top it will be cooler and it could be extremely hot under, so the frog would burn itself burrowing. I don't believe a UHT is only getting temps up to 80f, I've used one unstated to see how high it gets and it goes around 100f. This could possibly be the cause of death! Remember to use a digital thermometer as well, of course, as analogue won't measure the temp of the mat and just the ambient air temperature. Also, never heat a tank on both direction (UHT and heat bulb on top) Heat should only come one direction or it may confuse the frog. Finally, a thermostat is a must with UHT, especially for burrowing animals.

the mat was actually a hermit crab mat. it produces way less heat than one designed for frogs or lizards. i went with it so i wouldn't burn him. the thermostat is placed just above the sub so i m temping very low in the tank. i also had a 40w buld on 12hrs a day while the mat always stayed on. i placed the water and soem moss directly over the heater to prevent the frogs from borrowing directly above it to above burning them as well.

[jasonm96]

Make sure you measure the temp with a digital thermometer under the substrate, an unstated mat can be dangerous. I think you're best either just using the mat or the bulb, not both. Unless you put the mat on the side for night and a daytime for during the day, this works well. Heat from above and below is something I'd only do with arboreal frogs and especially not burrowers.

[Lija]

Humidity! Way way too low. That was the most obvious reason I see. And while adults are ok with occasional drop below 70, keeping a baby in around 60 could very possibly result in what we have here. You do not want it anywhere lower then 70 at any given point in time, always aim for at least 75. The proper range 70-80.

The other question - how often do you use bottled water, is there fluoride in either your tap ir bottled? And have you supplemented their food?

and one more given you had moss in there - how often did you see poops? Any signs of bloating?

did you have both of them in a same tank? And what were you feeding them? Any supplements?

i suggest in a light of what had happened. I suggest you go back to basics. Small tank ( medium kritter keeper, small nano Eco terra, 2.5g tank, something like that for a baby. Exo earth needs to be fully changed once a month, spot clean as you see. Water - every day. Cover 3 sides of a tank, put some plastic plant/cork/whatever to create a hide, but not actual reptile hide. Do not use moss.
Forget about Uth, get infrared/ceramic heater instead, you can suspend it over that small tank, plug into thermostat or even better get hydrotherm and fogger and plug everything in.
If you don't have it - get digital hydrometer and thermometer. Set everything up and see how successful you are in keeping constant humidity and temperature. ( if you have hydrotherm, should be pretty easy). If you have problems keeping humidity up - cover your screen top with glass/foil, usually 2/3 of your screen top is enough, but you gotta see.
check fluoride levels in your water.
make sure you have supplements (ca/d3- every other feeding), multivitamins once a week.

Once you can keep up temps/humidity you can get another, not nesseserily from a breeder. In fact locally even from petco sometimes it's safer then to get it shipped from somewhere. And most breeders don't do retail, and everybody else are just resellers.

Good luck!

[jasonm96]

Sorry Lija but horned frogs are very hardy when it comes to humidity and I seriously doubt they'd die because of that. They have adapted to dry conditions in their natural semi-arid habitat by burrowing. They're not tropical like dart frogs I don't even bother measuring my frogs humidity anymore as they're so hardy and just aim to keep the soil moist, as when they are active it's during the rainy season but when the tank has dried, the frog will just burrow deeper for moisture. Most frogs however, will do fine with at least 60% humidity.

A ceramic heat emitter or heat lamp in a 2.5 gal will most likely turn it into an oven and I'd only use a heat mat in such a small tank, to give a good thermal gradient. Ten gallon is best for a starter tank and then going up in size if you have a female. Covering 2/3 is far too much and should only cover half, if you even bother. I do agree if you're using a ceramic or heat lamp, it might be best to invest in some sort of fogger system to prevent the frog drying out.

[Lija]

Jason. Perhaps you are lucky and your frogs are pretty hardy, however low humidity is very dangerous, especially for babies. Yes older frogs can tolerate lower humidity to some extent, and if conditioned properly can be aestivating, but babies- new environment- big tank- low humidity situation might be very dangerous.
as for dart frog analogy, well may be you should read about them a little, they require way higher humidity then pacs and will suffer in 75.
Pacs are not as hardy as you think, they are susceptible to lots of problems, especially in stressful situations and the younger they are the more sensitive they are. Proper care is required, proper gauges are must for newbies. With experience you can cut corners and go by frog behaviour, because you can detect any small changes in frog wellbeing and react accordingly, new to the hobby people can't have that luxury.
Covering the top - it's trial, and if you live in higher humidity climate it is different from what people in very dry climates need to do to keep any humidity in their tanks. 2/3 top coverage won't work for me living in ambient humidity of 10% I'm going for almost full top coverage or taller tank. In general the taller the tank the easier it is to maintain humidity on a lower levels.

[jasonm96]

Going from books and experience, they've never stressed the important of humidity and I fact just told the reader to keep the tank moist. By the way, my chacoan horned frog came up as weakling due to a bad pet shop. The only horned frog I've read to need humidity 70+ Is the Cornuta. 10 gallon is hardly a big tank and for most species of frog it is the perfect starter tank, too small of a tank creates an unstable environment in cleanliness, temperature and even in humidity if you put a heat lamp above it. I never said dart frogs are in the 70% mark of humidity and just said they're tropical and this frog isn't. In fact I have read about them, as I'm getting them in 2 months, and some species can tolerate the humidity down to 60% for short periods of time I've heard but again, after setting them up in a dart frog tank, I'll be using my eyes to check if humidity is right, as most hygrometers I've been through, analogue or digital are well off and a waste of money. You've still got to have airflow though and unless you're using an exo terra, I'd never cover up more than half. It's abit different with dart frogs when you restrict ventilation as the plants oxygenate the air but with a horned frog tank it's completely different unless you add some potted plants. If you're having such problems with humidity perhaps that's what you should do as plants help with humidity as well.

[jasonm96]

I hope you don't think I'm being rude Lija but I'm just passionate I guess and so are you as I can see. Clearly we both have read very different information and have different opinions but hey, frog keeping is never straight forward. They are pretty hardy though as far as frogs go and they have to be in order to survive in their natural habitat. I do agree babies will be more at risk of drying out than adults but as long there is a deep layer of moist soil and water is available, they should be just fine.

[Lija]

Oh I didn't see this earlier.
Passionate is good, being realistic is different unfortunately I saw way too many sick, stressed out, dying frogs. With them there is always a thin line between them being ok one day and almost dying the next. They are very unforgiving to husbandry mistakes and the younger, the more sensitive they are and unfortunately some breeders care only about money and not the wellbeing of their frogs, they sell frogs way too young, way too small. Add to it not perfect husbandry, stress ( moving from the store home, new too big tank, something else) and you see sad results. And the younger and smaller they are, the less experienced you are the more chances you see any problems until it's too late.

And as as I said earlier different rules apply to newbies and experienced folks. And mmmm I don't use hydrometers either but I do have most tanks on controllers.

And to to wrap it all - let's stay on the topic and let's try to help OP. It was very sad and frustrating experience for him and let's help him enjoy the hobby just like we do.

[jasonm96]

I understand, it's a horrid sight.

I might need to get an expensive accurate hygrometer to double check my humidity, maybe you're right but I'd be surprised if 60% humidity killed it, especially if it crept up higher for a while after misting, unless not enough misting was done and 60% was the highest it really went. I give mine temporary increases in humidity, which would seem right looking at their habitat.

I definitely wouldn't heat from the bottom and from the top, that would be what is be putting my money on for the cause.