Pacman Trouble

[LauraS]

Just checking since you're using a UTH under the tank. Are you checking the temps under the substrate or on top?

[jasonm96]

Just checking since you're using a UTH under the tank. Are you checking the temps under the substrate or on top?

A good question and I totally missed that he said he was using a UHT. Anyone should definitely keep an eye on the temps under the substrate, as that's where the frog will burrow to. If you take a measuring from the top it will be cooler and it could be extremely hot under, so the frog would burn itself burrowing. I don't believe a UHT is only getting temps up to 80f, I've used one unstated to see how high it gets and it goes around 100f. This could possibly be the cause of death! Remember to use a digital thermometer as well, of course, as analogue won't measure the temp of the mat and just the ambient air temperature. Also, never heat a tank on both direction (UHT and heat bulb on top) Heat should only come one direction or it may confuse the frog. Finally, a thermostat is a must with UHT, especially for burrowing animals.

[bman0761]

A good question and I totally missed that he said he was using a UHT. Anyone should definitely keep an eye on the temps under the substrate, as that's where the frog will burrow to. If you take a measuring from the top it will be cooler and it could be extremely hot under, so the frog would burn itself burrowing. I don't believe a UHT is only getting temps up to 80f, I've used one unstated to see how high it gets and it goes around 100f. This could possibly be the cause of death! Remember to use a digital thermometer as well, of course, as analogue won't measure the temp of the mat and just the ambient air temperature. Also, never heat a tank on both direction (UHT and heat bulb on top) Heat should only come one direction or it may confuse the frog. Finally, a thermostat is a must with UHT, especially for burrowing animals.

the mat was actually a hermit crab mat. it produces way less heat than one designed for frogs or lizards. i went with it so i wouldn't burn him. the thermostat is placed just above the sub so i m temping very low in the tank. i also had a 40w buld on 12hrs a day while the mat always stayed on. i placed the water and soem moss directly over the heater to prevent the frogs from borrowing directly above it to above burning them as well.

[jasonm96]

Make sure you measure the temp with a digital thermometer under the substrate, an unstated mat can be dangerous. I think you're best either just using the mat or the bulb, not both. Unless you put the mat on the side for night and a daytime for during the day, this works well. Heat from above and below is something I'd only do with arboreal frogs and especially not burrowers.

[Lija]

Humidity! Way way too low. That was the most obvious reason I see. And while adults are ok with occasional drop below 70, keeping a baby in around 60 could very possibly result in what we have here. You do not want it anywhere lower then 70 at any given point in time, always aim for at least 75. The proper range 70-80.

The other question - how often do you use bottled water, is there fluoride in either your tap ir bottled? And have you supplemented their food?

and one more given you had moss in there - how often did you see poops? Any signs of bloating?

did you have both of them in a same tank? And what were you feeding them? Any supplements?

i suggest in a light of what had happened. I suggest you go back to basics. Small tank ( medium kritter keeper, small nano Eco terra, 2.5g tank, something like that for a baby. Exo earth needs to be fully changed once a month, spot clean as you see. Water - every day. Cover 3 sides of a tank, put some plastic plant/cork/whatever to create a hide, but not actual reptile hide. Do not use moss.
Forget about Uth, get infrared/ceramic heater instead, you can suspend it over that small tank, plug into thermostat or even better get hydrotherm and fogger and plug everything in.
If you don't have it - get digital hydrometer and thermometer. Set everything up and see how successful you are in keeping constant humidity and temperature. ( if you have hydrotherm, should be pretty easy). If you have problems keeping humidity up - cover your screen top with glass/foil, usually 2/3 of your screen top is enough, but you gotta see.
check fluoride levels in your water.
make sure you have supplements (ca/d3- every other feeding), multivitamins once a week.

Once you can keep up temps/humidity you can get another, not nesseserily from a breeder. In fact locally even from petco sometimes it's safer then to get it shipped from somewhere. And most breeders don't do retail, and everybody else are just resellers.

Good luck!

[jasonm96]

Sorry Lija but horned frogs are very hardy when it comes to humidity and I seriously doubt they'd die because of that. They have adapted to dry conditions in their natural semi-arid habitat by burrowing. They're not tropical like dart frogs I don't even bother measuring my frogs humidity anymore as they're so hardy and just aim to keep the soil moist, as when they are active it's during the rainy season but when the tank has dried, the frog will just burrow deeper for moisture. Most frogs however, will do fine with at least 60% humidity.

A ceramic heat emitter or heat lamp in a 2.5 gal will most likely turn it into an oven and I'd only use a heat mat in such a small tank, to give a good thermal gradient. Ten gallon is best for a starter tank and then going up in size if you have a female. Covering 2/3 is far too much and should only cover half, if you even bother. I do agree if you're using a ceramic or heat lamp, it might be best to invest in some sort of fogger system to prevent the frog drying out.

[Lija]

Jason. Perhaps you are lucky and your frogs are pretty hardy, however low humidity is very dangerous, especially for babies. Yes older frogs can tolerate lower humidity to some extent, and if conditioned properly can be aestivating, but babies- new environment- big tank- low humidity situation might be very dangerous.
as for dart frog analogy, well may be you should read about them a little, they require way higher humidity then pacs and will suffer in 75.
Pacs are not as hardy as you think, they are susceptible to lots of problems, especially in stressful situations and the younger they are the more sensitive they are. Proper care is required, proper gauges are must for newbies. With experience you can cut corners and go by frog behaviour, because you can detect any small changes in frog wellbeing and react accordingly, new to the hobby people can't have that luxury.
Covering the top - it's trial, and if you live in higher humidity climate it is different from what people in very dry climates need to do to keep any humidity in their tanks. 2/3 top coverage won't work for me living in ambient humidity of 10% I'm going for almost full top coverage or taller tank. In general the taller the tank the easier it is to maintain humidity on a lower levels.