Monkey Frog weight average and maturity questions

[Diver]

Hi Monkey Business, I have a group of 8 adults who are currently in the 'cold and dry' period ready for a breeding attempt in a couple of months.

I haven't weighed them, but generally the females ought to be larger. I can tell you this isn't always the case though as my largest individual of the whole group is a male (probably the oldest too).

No reason why sexual maturity can't be reached within a year, the growth rate is mind-blowing.

Some people will tell you they can tell the sex of sauvagii (and even bicolor) from the shape of the nose, I can tell you however that this is not always the case. Obviously the ones you have with nuptial pads are clearly male, if they've all been kept together in the same conditions and the other individual doesn't have pads and is not vocalising like the other two, then great chance of being female I would say.

Males (as with most frogs) are easy to get 'in the mood' with a little humidity and/or low air pressure, but the females do need a long cycling period to get 'ready'.

Husbandry wise, I keep a 12% T5 tube on 9-11 hours a day (depending on what photoperiod I'm using), they are very adapted to strong sunlight and so are resistant to UVB so need stronger for longer to get the benefit.

As varied a diet as possible with supplementary vitamins and calcium is essential, there is at least one paper showing that they develop fatal kidney stones if fed on a single, high protein food source and water bowl changed daily as I'm sure you've noticed the 'packets' of concentrated urates they tend to deposit there which are extremely harmful if re-absorbed.

I'm sure you already the know the dangers of high humidity and TB issues. 20-30% is good, raised for breeding obviously but only at night.

[Monkey Business]

Thanks SO much for the reply and taking the time.

high humidity and TB issues-humidity I know about but please explain TB in frogspeak; in birdspeak this literally means tuberculosis as we still see it in certain species!

I had my doubts about the "nose" thing. I will check the other two again for pads over the weekend. I am pretty sure they are all the same age as they were all about 1.25 inches when I got them.

My to-do item is to increase the amount of UV. They are very driven in all ways by light; exactly 5 minutes after I turn off their day bulb the boys begin to croak, for a few minutes only. It is like announcing their whereabouts.

Am obsessive about the water so that is good.

They are doing much better taking dubias, but so far no dice on waxworms, calci-worms, mealworms or basically anything in a dish; they want to hunt. That was the problem initially, the dubs were too slow-moving to excite them-until I fasted them for a few days to get them to try and now I place them on the screen in sight of the frogs and if they see movement they will stare at it all night until it moves again.

I have much confusion about the cycling period-some people on the forum say to feed them heavily before that period, and some say to feed LESS; this seems a pretty important point not to mess up! Logic tells me in fall-like conditions food would be LESS plentiful, and with "spring rains" would come more abundant food, or do I have this backwards? And how cold and how dry do you recommend?

[Diver]

TB, same as with birds, tuberculosis. Most people are of the opinion that sauvagii 'carry' it, but most live with it. A few don't.

As for cycling, on which forum are you getting the contradictory information?

You can independently research the climate in their natural environment to confirm, but briefly in the Gran Chacos there is a warm wetter season and a colder dryer season spanning half a year each. A bit like our winter and summer seasons, but switched the other way around being in the southern hemisphere. The breeding of course occurs during the wetter season to allow tadpole development. The colder season needs to be replicated to induce egg development with the females and trigger breeding behaviour.
Mine are now in the depth of the 'winter' with night temperatures down to 17C and day at 21C ambient. Higher temperatures are available under the basking light, but they avoid it entirely. They are pretty much inactive during this time although food is always offered. Humidity is 10-20%. As temperatures are gradually raised over the next couple of months, the frogs will become more active and are fed heavily at this time. By April they will be considered to be conditioned for breeding. All temperature changes are very gradual and accompanied by photo period changes ranging from 13 hours daylight in 'summer' to 11 hours in 'winter'
Diet-wise, roaches are great, crickets too and moths etc are also eagerly taken. One of out best feeders, the locust, is I'm sure unavailable to you where you live, but you presumably have alternative grasshopper species that you could obtain? Variety is key, as really it ought to be with all things!

[Monkey Business]

Yes the info was on this forum but naturally I can't find the thread now. One person said feed a lot when in winter to fatten them up and prepare females for eggs, and another said fast them in winter so they will be ravenous when spring comes. Well that is the nature of opinions, so taken with a grain of salt. I do believe that often common sense combined with feedback from someone like you prevails.

Man that Chaco must be a hotbed for TB, the birds that carry it also come from that region. However, since many of those birds are now a few generations of domestic breeding it is becoming more rare; I hope that is also the case with sauvagii and that domestics are far less likely to suffer from it.

I have a cool temp warehouse where I can cycle properly so the temp is spot-on but humidity may be a problem; we have normally around 30% down to occasional 10% usually in October with our Santa Ana conditions. May I ask how you make that happen? Normally you would add additional heat to dry out the air but of course that messes with the temps. Also, are you actually producing winter for them for 6 months or would a couple or three months suffice?

I'll check into locusts, appreciate the tip. I am cautious about feeding anything I catch due to concerns about parasites but I am sure here in the US someone breeds the nasty buggers.

[Diver]

30% would be OK as long as it doesn't go above that, coupled with occasionally down to 10% sounds good. At this time of year over here the humidity is low (due to the cold) and with the frogs being kept in an unheated room with the vivarium heated with an incandescent basking light and ceramics, the effect of those is drying too. A dehumidifier of of course the other option.

The dry season in the wild lasts from May to September, for us in the northern hemisphere flipping it round by six months makes it easier to achieve the right conditions so for mine I started bring the temps and photo period down in October. December and January are the coldest then I'll bring them up to 'summer' temperatures starting at the end of this month until April. All changes are made very gradually over this time to mimic how the climate changes in the wild. I couldn't say if there is a short cut to this, but any rapid changes are potentially dangerous.

[Monkey Business]

Not looking for shortcuts for my sake; I just know that I would be pretty nervous placing the frogs in such harsh conditions for so long. I know that is what happens in nature, but as we know, in nature a percentage (possibly a large percentage) of them don't make it.

One last question for now; do the nuptial pads come and go only when the frogs are in the mood, or do they keep them once developed?

[Diver]

They come and go. Making sexing that bit more tricky until you REALLY know

I'm not sure the cooling period is particularly hard for them, just need to be sure that they are 100% healthy and well fed beforehand. I know a breeder in Europe who took his as low as 10C last year with no detrimental effects. They'll eat very little while cold though, so yes any animal that you have any doubts about would be better kept in hotter conditions (which are also pretty harsh by most frog's standards!)