Looking for new frog/frogs

[Dace]

I'll bet that if you had a 75 lying around for the 1 frog instead of a 20 high the absolute minimum would magically become 75... Seriously though what other signs? Has anyone actually experienced them fist hand? What brought about this sudden change in gray's housing requirements... I mean you can argue all you want but the frogs don't care anymore now than they did before...

[jasonm96]

It's no sudden change but an opinion from different people and you're going to get that on a frog forum. I've read different tank sizes for loads of species vary in different books. Anyway, change in the hobby is such an important thing that shouldn't be ignored, that just because an animal has lived does not mean it's care can't be better.

[Dace]

Well said

[Larry Wardog]

I'll bet that if you had a 75 lying around for the 1 frog instead of a 20 high the absolute minimum would magically become 75... Seriously though what other signs? Has anyone actually experienced them fist hand? What brought about this sudden change in gray's housing requirements... I mean you can argue all you want but the frogs don't care anymore now than they did before...

Not if but when I have a 75 Laying around it will be the standard size for my Whites. It like moving into a house, would you want a big house or a small house and money is not an option? most people would want the big house if they can get it. You have to understand that these are not animals like dogs or birds that are domesticated. They need a close replica of their natural environment to survive. They don't operate 2 feet of space in the wild, they cover miles. It's my opinion that they should be in a 40 gallon at least. I have no scientific proof but I have owned one for over a year and a half. It has been in 3 enclosures and as the enclosures got bigger it started growing faster and exploring along with hunting. What it would do in the wild. You can use what you want, I'm just sharing what I have observed.


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[Dace]

I was actually replying to someone else and it was concerning gray tree frogs.
seriously though, if you gave a dog it's own 7 acre field to run around in whenever it wants and a swimming pool, you'd probably see the dog using them all the time and it would definitely appreciate it. That doesn't mean a dog needs a giant field and swimming pool to be happy and healthy.
I would have to disagree that tree frogs (is can't speak for white's of course, but local species at least) have home ranges "covering miles." I have seen the same spring peepers return to the same exact spot on a window night after night for months, coming back every year, and know people who have grays do the same thing, even sleeping in the exact same spot week after week and making a short evening commute to the porch light. I have a toad in the yard who lives in the same rock pile and calls in the same puddle of water that forms every year. Even in the confines of a vivarium tree frogs tend to sleep in the same spot. Just because animals are wild and undomesticated doesn't mean they live a nomadic lifestyle that requires huge amounts space.

[Larry Wardog]

I was actually replying to someone else and it was concerning gray tree frogs.
seriously though, if you gave a dog it's own 7 acre field to run around in whenever it wants and a swimming pool, you'd probably see the dog using them all the time and it would definitely appreciate it. That doesn't mean a dog needs a giant field and swimming pool to be happy and healthy.
I would have to disagree that tree frogs (is can't speak for white's of course, but local species at least) have home ranges "covering miles." I have seen the same spring peepers return to the same exact spot on a window night after night for months, coming back every year, and know people who have grays do the same thing, even sleeping in the exact same spot week after week and making a short evening commute to the porch light. I have a toad in the yard who lives in the same rock pile and calls in the same puddle of water that forms every year. Even in the confines of a vivarium tree frogs tend to sleep in the same spot. Just because animals are wild and undomesticated doesn't mean they live a nomadic lifestyle that requires huge amounts space.

Where are your sources to show Frogs and Toads do not travel?
Also where are your sources that recommends size of enclosure doesn't matter?


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[Dace]

Where are your sources that they do travel?

i've never seen a study concerning the movements of frogs and toads except during breeding migrations. Those were personal observations, along with other observations from other people and a few books.

I'm not saying enclosure size doesn't matter, I'm just saying that I (and many other people) have kept adult grays in ten gallon vivariums with virtually no problems. If you want to project yourself onto a frog (which is, frankly, an unintelligent and extremely apathetic animal) and give it a super sized enclosure so it will be "happier", go ahead but don't try to discourage other people from keeping them by pushing your unfounded opinion.

[Larry Wardog]

Where are your sources that they do travel?

i've never seen a study concerning the movements of frogs and toads except during breeding migrations. Those were personal observations, along with other observations from other people and a few books.

I'm not saying enclosure size doesn't matter, I'm just saying that I (and many other people) have kept adult grays in ten gallon vivariums with virtually no problems. If you want to project yourself onto a frog (which is, frankly, an unintelligent and extremely apathetic animal) and give it a super sized enclosure so it will be "happier", go ahead but don't try to discourage other people from keeping them by pushing your unfounded opinion.

Look up Frank Indiviglio for the toads, that's cool that you want to save money.


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[Larry Wardog]

Where are your sources that they do travel?

i've never seen a study concerning the movements of frogs and toads except during breeding migrations. Those were personal observations, along with other observations from other people and a few books.

I'm not saying enclosure size doesn't matter, I'm just saying that I (and many other people) have kept adult grays in ten gallon vivariums with virtually no problems. If you want to project yourself onto a frog (which is, frankly, an unintelligent and extremely apathetic animal) and give it a super sized enclosure so it will be "happier", go ahead but don't try to discourage other people from keeping them by pushing your unfounded opinion.

As a grey owner, I would not recommend a 10 gallon for anything other than a hospital tank. As Jason said, there are other signs than just trying to escape. I started with my first grey in a 10 gallon, I recognized quickly that it wasn't enough space. These frogs are very active at night and need space to move and exercise. When I had one housed alone, I had him in a 20g high.

So many care sheets I've read suggest the very minimum size of tank for any animal. When buying larger tanks than suggested, you're actually doing yourself a favour as well as the animal, as the substrate doesn't spoil so quickly and as a result, a complete tank clean out doesn't have to be so frequent. An animal could show stress with irregular activity for the animal, snout abrasions, going off food, decline in health, etc.

Even though they're small, gray tree frogs as I'm sure you know jump long distances and are very active at night. They will be very limited in a 10-gallon, sure you can keep one in there but for a little bit of extra money you can make the life of the animal so much better. Some books I've read have recommended a 10-gallon, whereas others it's been at least 20-gallons. I keep 2 green tree frogs in a 20-gallon and I wouldn't put them in anything smaller but it will come down to the keeper in the end.

This is people on your own thread that disagree with you




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[Dace]

This isn't my thread.
I am aware that toads are fairly intelligent, at least by amphibian standards, but they're still really dumb compared to any mammal or bird. Even some insects such as solitary wasps display the same capability for learning and even simple problem solving. Toads are still just ambush predators, concerned only with breeding, eating and staying hidden. They don't exhibit complex social or territorial behavior, they barely hunt, and they certainly don't need cognitive enrichment to be happy. For a frog or toad, "Not diseased, injured, starving or in immediate peril" (or what is perceived as immediate peril) almost certainly translates to the same thing as "happy."
Saying that frogs have "territories covering miles" is an extremely wild claim and I have personally witnessed evidence that it is not true.
Take a look a the snake keeping hobby. Snakes move around all the time when they want to eat or breed. They cross roads and enter houses in search of prey, places to bask or hibernate, and mates. But what a snake really wants to do is curl up in a warm, safe hole or under a rock and digest its latest meal. In captivity, hobbyists keep and breed snakes in tiny containers that they can't even stretch to their full length in- yet they're perfectly happy. They might roam in search of resources in the wild, but in captivity where they have all of their feeding, temperature and breeding needs hand delivered to them in a small, safe space they never feel the need to go anywhere and are perfectly content. I'm not saying this is the same for frogs and toads, they are very different from snakes and certainly need some space to move around but it's just an example of how captivity and the wild can be very different places even for the same wild animal.

[Dace]

And take a look at the way this university suggests rearing grays: (for laboratory research, not pets)
http://www.biosci.missouri.edu/gerha...0husbandry.pdf

by our standards, this approach is positively spartan, and I would go so far as to say the frogs might not be as "happy" as they would be in a large, naturalistic vivarium. But clearly they've had success with it, and the frogs have all their basic food, moisture and sanitation needs met and it's entirely possible that they don't notice or care about the difference.

[Larry Wardog]

Toads are no exception to this rule, my toad went from a 75 gallon to an Exo Terra for 2 days and had serious issues of rubbing her nose against the glad and was very lazy even for a toad. They will move around I believe for up to a mile or more in search of food and etc. I have never heard of someone that defends small enclosures. The info with snakes does not have merit since we are talking about amphibians. Snakes need larger enclosures also. It's not that the frog is happy, it is more active, looks healthier, color is better, can display more natural behavior, and so on. The claims that you are bringing are seeming inconsiderate to the animals. You can have your opinion that's fine but we will have to disagree on how we care for our animals.


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[Dace]

Did you even read my post? And that's exactly what I'm getting at. When I posted the link to the university rearing manual, btw I wasn't trying to endorse keeping frogs in that manner. Just trying to show that I'm not completely evil at least by comparison I guess, lol.
are you sure the toad wasn't just nose rubbing because it was stressed out from being moved or didn't feel secure in it's new surroundings?

[jasonm96]

Darts are territorial, that's all I'm gonna say. Ima just sit back for the rest of this

[Dace]

Darts are territorial, that's all I'm gonna say. Ima just sit back for the rest of this

Solitary bees are territorial, and they may fly miles every day searching for flowers. That doesn't mean a bee wouldn't happily raise its grubs on pollen and honey you provide for it in a small sand filled jar.

[glutes]

This isn't my thread.
I am aware that toads are fairly intelligent, at least by amphibian standards, but they're still really dumb compared to any mammal or bird. Even some insects such as solitary wasps display the same capability for learning and even simple problem solving. Toads are still just ambush predators, concerned only with breeding, eating and staying hidden. They don't exhibit complex social or territorial behavior, they barely hunt, and they certainly don't need cognitive enrichment to be happy. For a frog or toad, "Not diseased, injured, starving or in immediate peril" (or what is perceived as immediate peril) almost certainly translates to the same thing as "happy."
Saying that frogs have "territories covering miles" is an extremely wild claim and I have personally witnessed evidence that it is not true.
Take a look a the snake keeping hobby. Snakes move around all the time when they want to eat or breed. They cross roads and enter houses in search of prey, places to bask or hibernate, and mates. But what a snake really wants to do is curl up in a warm, safe hole or under a rock and digest its latest meal. In captivity, hobbyists keep and breed snakes in tiny containers that they can't even stretch to their full length in- yet they're perfectly happy. They might roam in search of resources in the wild, but in captivity where they have all of their feeding, temperature and breeding needs hand delivered to them in a small, safe space they never feel the need to go anywhere and are perfectly content. I'm not saying this is the same for frogs and toads, they are very different from snakes and certainly need some space to move around but it's just an example of how captivity and the wild can be very different places even for the same wild animal.

You are right, snakes prefer to curl up and sleep. Frogs like to jump, hunt and explore. I kept two whites in a 10 gallon for a while and they both nearly rubbed their noses off. Their colors were dark and mottled as well.now, in a 65 gal, their noses are perfectly intact and their colors are a even blue to green. So does tank size make a difference? Yes it does. Just because an animal can survive, you won't see it's true capabilities until you help it thrive.


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[Dace]

You are right, snakes prefer to curl up and sleep. Frogs like to jump, hunt and explore. I kept two whites in a 10 gallon for a while and they both nearly rubbed their noses off. Their colors were dark and mottled as well.now, in a 65 gal, their noses are perfectly intact and their colors are a even blue to green. So does tank size make a difference? Yes it does. Just because an animal can survive, you won't see it's true capabilities until you help it thrive.


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did you read the end of my post?
the frog I'm talking about keeping in ten gallons are gray tree frogs, which are about a third the size of whites. I've never had issues with nose rubbing, only two short, isolated incidents with feeding, and their colors are usually fine.

[glutes]

did you read the end of my post?
the frog I'm talking about keeping in ten gallons are gray tree frogs, which are about a third the size of whites. I've never had issues with nose rubbing, only two short, isolated incidents with feeding, and their colors are usually fine.

They may be smaller, but they still need the same amount of space. All tree frogs despite the type need as much space as you can give them. If you can't give them at least 20 gallons, you should not own tree frogs. Oh, and did you read the end of my post?


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[Lija]

Dace and everybody else - warning! Please read forum terms of use before posting further.

and just to clarify - "happy " in a hobby means not stressed out animal and that is what any responsible frog owner need to try to achieve. Snakes in small tubs are not "happy", but unlike frogs they are more forgiving to husbandry mistakes and similar to frog hobby, responsible snake owners are keeping their snakes in adequate enclosures (tubs).


To OP - you haven't specified the dimensions of the tank, but by the looks of it, it is not suitable for tree frogs, sorry. Tree frogs need space, the bigger the better and if you could provide the size of the tank we could advice you better.

[Dace]

You're all saying it's too small but you aren't giving any evidence other than your own, emotionally- driven opinion.
why exactly would all tree frogs need the same space regardless of size?