Would RETFs eat crickets using this method...

[Diver]

Don't worry, I think most of us got that you were joking Incidentally with regards to natural vivaria vs more sterile types (and feeding methods), I was reading a paper not very long ago illustrating that frogs actually gain valuable dietary trace elements from the soil that they ingest along with their prey. Over here companies now supply ready-made bioactive substrates that take this into account as well as avoiding dangerous ingredients that could cause impaction. Worth a thought!

[LilyPad]

Diver - I have also read many things about frogs, particularly red eyed tree frogs, who have impaction issues and rectal prolapse from ingesting things in their soil, whether it's bark pieces, moss pieces or etc. I mod a red eyed tree frog group and have seen it over and over and over in the last couple
of years. I do not see any benefit into allowing your frog to ingest their vivaria substrate. This is why SUPPLEMENTS are important. I'm not sure if you're new to the hobby and that's why you're so particularly passionate of your specific way of doing things, or if you're old to the hobby and come from a time when supplements were not as refined as they are now. I have bioactive substrate in my vivariums and still would not condone allowing accidental ingestion of substrate. I still see bits and pieces of stuff that I would not want in my frogs' intestines. It's from stuff that helps to encourage drainage when planting a naturalistic vivarium. My darts do not get fed in a sterile method, but they do not take large mouthfuls of substrate as tree frogs do, they delicately snap up their prey.

You seem to think that "over there" you guys do things so much better and differently than we do in the states. Strangely enough, when talking to other people from Europe, particularly England but not only England, the hobby in your part of the world is not very different than over here.

Ulysses - I get that you were joking now, but we have had many members here in the past who would not be joking about that kind of stuff which is why I tend to take it a bit more seriously Hard to convey sarcasm through text.

[ulyssis]

Ulysses - I get that you were joking now, but we have had many members here in the past who would not be joking about that kind of stuff which is why I tend to take it a bit more seriously Hard to convey sarcasm through text.

My emoticons aren't working [emoji30]

[Diver]

Diver - I have also read many things about frogs, particularly red eyed tree frogs, who have impaction issues and rectal prolapse from ingesting things in their soil, whether it's bark pieces, moss pieces or etc. I mod a red eyed tree frog group and have seen it over and over and over in the last couple
of years. I do not see any benefit into allowing your frog to ingest their vivaria substrate. This is why SUPPLEMENTS are important. I'm not sure if you're new to the hobby and that's why you're so particularly passionate of your specific way of doing things, or if you're old to the hobby and come from a time when supplements were not as refined as they are now. I have bioactive substrate in my vivariums and still would not condone allowing accidental ingestion of substrate. I still see bits and pieces of stuff that I would not want in my frogs' intestines. It's from stuff that helps to encourage drainage when planting a naturalistic vivarium. My darts do not get fed in a sterile method, but they do not take large mouthfuls of substrate as tree frogs do, they delicately snap up their prey.

You seem to think that "over there" you guys do things so much better and differently than we do in the states. Strangely enough, when talking to other people from Europe, particularly England but not only England, the hobby in your part of the world is not very different than over here.

As I said Amy, it was a scientific peer reviewed paper that I found interesting. You may also find it interesting that the vast majority of impaction issues with most captive animals can be traced back to poor husbandry rather than substrate type. That said (again as I stated) potentially dangerous substrates shouldn't be used as they pose a risk. Fine soil of the kind that gets sold for bio active substrate does not pose a risk and is designed that way. I think this was all very clear in my comment.

Not that it's relevant, but you seem to want to be personal and argue with me for some reason? I've been keeping and breeding many thousands of individual animals for 36 years, but this doesn't mean that I learned everything I could 36 years ago and didn't learn anything since, it's an evolving process. I'm happy to share knowledge and advice and sometimes that may conflict with some of the advice you give. That doesn't mean you have to try and turn it into some sort of Europe vs USA conflict, it's just that none of us know everything and discussion is a good way to learn. Sometimes you come over as just looking for an argument.

And people wonder why forums are dying!

[Diver]

I have bioactive substrate in my vivariums and still would not condone allowing accidental ingestion of substrate. I still see bits and pieces of stuff that I would not want in my frogs' intestines. It's from stuff that helps to encourage drainage when planting a naturalistic vivarium.

In the interests of trying to help, it seems that you haven't got your bio-active substrate set up correctly for your tree frogs. Let me take you through it:

Drainage is accomplished by use of a drainage layer, not bits and pieces mixed in. A layer of clay balls, egg crate or something similar should be at the bottom covered by a mesh. On top of this mesh is your soil, usually a mixture of coco fibre and fine topsoil in which your springtails etc live. The frogs should at no point come into contact with the drainage layer so there shouldn't be any 'bits and pieces of stuff' that they can accidentally ingest that would cause impaction issues. I strongly suggest you remove what you have in there and start again following these guidelines. I see now why you are trying to rely on a glass bowl for feeding, but it isn't necessary if the vivarium is set up correctly. By and large tree frogs prefer to hunt in the trees of course, but they will take prey from the ground too so it's good to ensure that substrate is fit for purpose.
Healthy frogs have a good mechanism for ensuring they do not ingest harmful foreign bodies (otherwise they would have a hard time of it in the wild with no glass bowls!), but we can and should in the captive environment ensure that foreign bodies are not in the substrate to begin with thus negating the (albeit small) chance of impaction problems.

[deranged chipmunk]

I'm gonna jump in here before this gets ugly and say that this is an issue of differences in husbandry techniques here. You folks across the pond use a different type substrate than we use over here. Ours is a mix of milled sphagnum moss, orchid bark, tree fern fiber, coco coir and charcoal. It's commonly known as ABG. It's a recipe created by the Atlanta (Georgia, US) Botanical Gardens. It provides excellent drainage, as well as nutrition for the plants. The larger chucks give places for things like microfauna and beneficial bacteria to live and still provides enough aeration to prevent any anaerobic bacteria from building up. At least that is what we use for live planted tanks. Some people cover the sub with mosses and leaf litter, but some don't. Guess there's always more than one way to skin a cat

[Diver]

We do have ABG here too Bill, it's popular with dart frog keepers. It's not the best thing to use with animals such as tree frogs that can potentially be harmed by ingesting parts of it though. I would recommend ensuring the substrate used can 'first do no harm'.