Question about humidity and temps

[Shakudo]

Hello,

I have some mixed feelings about the temps and humidity I am getting and I hope somebody can give me some advice.
I am trying something and I am not sure which is better. It's a little experiment, but I am doubting what to do with the result.


The situation:

My exo terra is 30x30x30 CM, not a permanent enclosure but temporary, Kermit will be getting a larger tank when the Time is there, for Christmas perhaps.
When Kermit has grown out of it.

Heating
I heat by UTH, a little heat mat of 7 watt, which doesn't get very warm, and is placed on the left side under the tank. To create the possibility of thermoregulation.

The side won't work for me, too much heat loss, and with a backdrop... more heat loss. Ergo the choice for underneath.

I also have an exo terra daylight basking spot, which is coated on the sides and sits in the light hood. I chose this bulb because heat is reflected and not beamed directly to one spot to prevent the frog from being dried out


The temps and humidity:
When I only used the heat mat, the temps were about 21 degrees Celsius on the warm side. Which was a bit too chilly so I added the lamp.
Together they create a temp about mostly 24, sometimes 25 degrees Celsius and steady, when I use my central heating it goes up a notch and it keeps at 25/26 degrees Celsius.

I mist once maybe twice a day to keep the humidity between 70 and 80% sometimes it falls back a bit sometimes it goes higher.



My experiment:


I have a little Plexiglas plate, that I can place on the mesh screen top in the front. (see picture added).
It leaves a strip of mesh free of about 1 cm for ventilation
When I use this, the temperature rises and keeps around 25/26 degrees and the humidity rises as well.

When the heat lamp goes out, the temperature keeps a bit higer up, during the night. About 23 degrees Celcius.
But my concern was the humidity, it rises to almost 90% or higher during the night, and together with the plate blocking large air movements, I am afraid of stagnant air and mold in the tank.

Is that situation harmful to my frog?
Should I leave the plate on or off, or take it off only at night...?

I like the Exo Terra's they are my favorite tank and in the Summer months they really have excellent ventilation, but in the colder seasons I have a lot of heat and humidity loss.

I don't really know what is better.
I am trying to create a good environment for Kermit, and I am a little bit afraid of doing it wrong, I really want to provide the best I can.
Can you smell the perfectionist haha


Thank you for any advice.

Joey

[monster]

Cut the plexi glass abit more so it gives you a bigger opening and don't mist a few hours before lights go off and it should help. Also if you cant cut the plexi glass again foil will help a a lot, and its easier to replace and cut if you need a bigger or smaller opening. I just got to run out for abit and I will post pictures for ya.

[jasonm96]

I can tell you straight away that you're not getting an accurate temperature reading from that gauge. heat mats don't heat the air significantly and heat the substrate and animal instead. put a digital thermometer with the probe under the substrate on the heat mat and you'll see that a heat mat full blast will reach a very hot temperature, so make sure it's on a stat.

[Shakudo]

I can tell you straight away that you're not getting an accurate temperature reading from that gauge. heat mats don't heat the air significantly and heat the substrate and animal instead. put a digital thermometer with the probe under the substrate on the heat mat and you'll see that a heat mat full blast will reach a very hot temperature, so make sure it's on a stat.

I'll look into that. Thanks.


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[jasonm96]

I think you'll find that will be the problem, I was in the same situation If you're using a heat lamp as well i'd take it out and put an exo terra natural light or 2.0, it doesn't produce enough UVB to be of any use but will provide a day and night cycle and make it easier to view the frog a heat source on the bottom and one on the top isn't good, means the frog can't escape the heat

[Shakudo]

I think you'll find that will be the problem, I was in the same situation If you're using a heat lamp as well i'd take it out and put an exo terra natural light or 2.0, it doesn't produce enough UVB to be of any use but will provide a day and night cycle and make it easier to view the frog a heat source on the bottom and one on the top isn't good, means the frog can't escape the heat

I actually felt the heat mat myself, as well as the glass and I tested it with full substrate in it and felt the bottom of the substrate and honestly... It doesn't become very warm at all, its 7 watts....

My frog doesn't need any UVB, although a little can be beneficial. But I chose not to use one because of the small distance between the light and the ground. UVB rays can be harmful if there is not enough distance between the source and the ground. Learned that when I was studying about my Russian tortoise.

The heat mat is very small and only covers about a third of the tank, the right side has no mat under it. There are also 2 hides one on the warm side and one on the cool side. So my frog can choose where to sit.

The heat mat alone doesn't produce enough warmth by itself so I'll have to keep using the lamp.

I can remove the heat mat but I am afraid it will get too cold at night here so I think I'll try to cut the plexiglass first.

I don't want it to get to cold for my frog.

I added a picture of the lamp so you can see.
It's a really safe lamp to use imo for an amphibian.





I don't know if you can tell but I put the plexiglass back on it this afternoon and its now 26 degrees Celsius. That's 2 degrees up. It normally is 24 degrees. On one site they say 24 degrees is fine on the other site they say it should be 25 to 28 degrees. Hence my confusion..... There are many sites and many opinions.....






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[Shakudo]

Cut the plexi glass abit more so it gives you a bigger opening and don't mist a few hours before lights go off and it should help. Also if you cant cut the plexi glass again foil will help a a lot, and its easier to replace and cut if you need a bigger or smaller opening. I just got to run out for abit and I will post pictures for ya.

Thanks I'll try that


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[Shakudo]

Well... I went to my friend and he cut the plexiglass to make room for more ventilation. I ordered the sunglo 25 watts just to be sure. I'll test it out next week when it gets there. I'll keep you guys posted.


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[Shakudo]

So here is an update on the situation.
The temps and humidity are fine.

I got my order in though, of the lamp I ordered extra just to see if it makes a difference in temperature.

I also spread some dried Oak leaves in the terrarium to help with humidity and make it look more Natural.

Here are some pictures of it.


The lamp I ordered, I've put in the hood so I'm monitoring it to see if it makes any real difference.




The terrarium, Kermit is dug in in front of the flower pot but you can't barely see him. But I'd figure I'd leave Kermit be. Yesterday I fed some mealworms, and I got a good feeding response.





Take care,

Joey


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[monster]

Hey man looks good, and glad to hear things are starting to work out for you. Don't feed meal worms to often, they don't digest the exo skeleton and if theres to much it can impact him.

[Shakudo]

Hey man looks good, and glad to hear things are starting to work out for you. Don't feed meal worms to often, they don't digest the exo skeleton and if theres to much it can impact him.

Hi,

Thank you again for your advice.
Really? I didn't know that. I'd figure they eat all sorts of insects in the wild.
I feed them to my leopard gecko, and invertebrates. Never really had a problem with them really.
Don't crickets and morioworms, and other feeders have exo skeletons too? Or are it just the mealies I should be modest with?

[jasonm96]

Looking great I'm not sure if 25W will be enough though, usually 40W is one to go for but let us know how you get on. Agree with Corey, mealworms are rubbish, barely have any nutrition to them aswell. Best thing to feed is earth worms/nightcrawlers, my Pac loves them!

[Shakudo]

Looking great I'm not sure if 25W will be enough though, usually 40W is one to go for but let us know how you get on. Agree with Corey, mealworms are rubbish, barely have any nutrition to them aswell. Best thing to feed is earth worms/nightcrawlers, my Pac loves them!

Thanks again,

Well it keeps up so far 78.8 F that's 26 C.
The previous bulb kept it almost the same to be honest just about a degree in difference.
But I'll try this and see. I can't put any other bulbs in that hood so. This one or the other one will have to do until the next enclosure comes.






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[Shakudo]

Well, here's an update on the temps...

I saw that with my central heating on the temps rose to 27 C / 80 F.
The behavior of my frog changed.

At first Kermit sat in a little bowl in the substrate.

With the new light and heatmat on, I saw that Kermit went almost completely underground, only a little green spec was visible.

I read about this and I concluded that it might be too warm.

I woke up at 4 AM this night and went to check on Kermit. the temps were about 23 C / 73 F.
And was sitting in the bowl like manner again.

I have removed the heat mat under the thank, and I am observing how Kermit reacts now.
I have felt the underside of the enclosure and more surface then expected was heated, more then I intended anyway, so I chose to follow the advice given and remove it.

Currently the temperature is 24 C / 75 F, and Kermit has come up a bit and now sits in the bowl manner again and not completely burrowed down.

I know burrowing is the Natural behavior of these frog species, but I also read I should pay attention to sudden changes in behavior.
The forenamed behavior started when I had the new lamp, and heat mat on and my central heating in my house on.

I have concluded that the notion "every frog is different" certainly applies. And I am leaning towards the idea that Kermit feels more comfortable at this temperature then the hotter temp.

I am not observing any soaking, cleaned some poop so I know there has been eating. There are some crickets left though which have been in there a few days.
I am planning to remove them if they are not eaten soon.

The humidity currently sits between 60 and 70 % but I won't let it fall down lower than 60 %.
The humidity is dropping faster since the new lamp, but that's only logical.
I mist once maybe twice a day.

Can't think of anything more to report lol.

Joey

[Shakudo]

Because I am a nerd and I like it....
I went ahead and compared ten random websites with each other about their advice concerning temperatures for pac man frogs.

I made a little temp analysis.
I like statistics I guess lol
For those interested my personal favorite is no. 10. I find it the most accessible for me.


Thought I'd share a little screenshot.




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[Shakudo]

First Kermit was completely under the ground, I could only see a little bit of the back.
Now the temps have been brought down, I see the same pose as in the beginning.

I have the feeling this situation is better somehow.

Joey

[Shakudo]

Hello everybody,
Well.... The daytemps and humidity are okay now.
But...
I noticed at night the temps dropped to 20 degrees C / 68 F I was afraid the temps would get to low. It can cool down pretty much in my living room at night. Even to 18 C / 64 F.

I put the heat mat back under the tank but on a separate timer. It will go on when the lights go out. And turn off when the lights come back on in the morning so there is always a heat source but not on together at the same time. I really hope I got it right now.

Sigh.




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[monster]

Hi, if your day temp is still 75 I would really try to get it back up to about that 80f mark. Him sitting in the water bowl can be for other reasons then him just being warm. If the substrate is to dry and he cant absorb enough moisture through his skin to hydrate himself he would sit in the bowl to do this, not saying this is the problem its just an example. Also letting it drop that low at night isn't good either. They need the heat to digest there food and being in temps like this for to long can also lead to serious illnesses. And the illness could happen over time so you may think hes doing good and then all of a sudden he isn't. Being exposed to low temps for to long can damage the kidneys and lymph nodes causing edema. When I got my first pacman ever this is the condition she was being kept in but at the time of purchase she seemed ok. Everything was fine for the first couple months and then she took a turn for the worse. When I brought her to the vet she was diagnosed with edema, I asked if it could have been there the whole time and she said yes, and with it being my first frog I just didnt notice the signs till it was out of control and to late. Even after a month of antibiotics she passed away shortly after. Edema isn't curable, its one of those things that you can make better for awhile to give your frog abit longer of a life but will flare up again and eventually your frog cant take it anymore. I know fighting with the humidity is a pain but the temps are very important. Also if there isn't enough humidity that can be another reason hes sitting in the bowl. I would put a 40 watt red bulb in that hood and hook it to a dimmer or thermostat so you can adjust it for night temps and get a dome to place on top with a bulb for light that doesn't produce heat that you can just turn off at night. If you already have the temps back up around 80 mark never mind this, and 81f to 82f would be even better.

[Shakudo]

Hi, if your day temp is still 75 I would really try to get it back up to about that 80f mark. Him sitting in the water bowl can be for other reasons then him just being warm. If the substrate is to dry and he cant absorb enough moisture through his skin to hydrate himself he would sit in the bowl to do this, not saying this is the problem its just an example. Also letting it drop that low at night isn't good either. They need the heat to digest there food and being in temps like this for to long can also lead to serious illnesses. And the illness could happen over time so you may think hes doing good and then all of a sudden he isn't. Being exposed to low temps for to long can damage the kidneys and lymph nodes causing edema. When I got my first pacman ever this is the condition she was being kept in but at the time of purchase she seemed ok. Everything was fine for the first couple months and then she took a turn for the worse. When I brought her to the vet she was diagnosed with edema, I asked if it could have been there the whole time and she said yes, and with it being my first frog I just didnt notice the signs till it was out of control and to late. Even after a month of antibiotics she passed away shortly after. Edema isn't curable, its one of those things that you can make better for awhile to give your frog abit longer of a life but will flare up again and eventually your frog cant take it anymore. I know fighting with the humidity is a pain but the temps are very important. Also if there isn't enough humidity that can be another reason hes sitting in the bowl. I would put a 40 watt red bulb in that hood and hook it to a dimmer or thermostat so you can adjust it for night temps and get a dome to place on top with a bulb for light that doesn't produce heat that you can just turn off at night. If you already have the temps back up around 80 mark never mind this, and 81f to 82f would be even better.

I think you misread.
I write about how he is sitting in the substrate in a little bowl like manner. Not in the water dish.
I maintain humidity every day.



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[Shakudo]

Ive contacted his breeder again.


I'm getting so much info and so much conflicting info that I'm really overwhelmed right now.


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