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Thread: Uvb and D3

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    Default Uvb and D3

    As an extension to the discussion on another thread regarding the merits of providing UVB, it was suggested to start a separate thread on the subject. After a fairly brief search I've found a number of scientific articles which may be of interest to those who are unaware of them. I'll dig them out when I'm not at work and on my phone, but for now here's an interesting read from this very forum:

    http://www.frogforum.net/showthread.php?t=24225
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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    Yeah, I noticed when my Five-lined skinks had actually nice UVB they got this great coloration, but now because my bulbs (and lamps) both died, they started losing color. Especially the female one, she had these glorious stripes, and her tail was still blue, but now her stripes are faint, and her tail is a blueish gray color

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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    No discussion on UVB needed, it had been beaten to death topic already.

    Once again - different species have different requirements. What's good and must for one, might be really bad for the other.
    Albino morphs of any species can not have any UVB at all, for some species exposure might be harmful, for the others lack of UVB will be harmful and even deadly.

    Just one of the useful readings available to general public with summary of data and scientific papers available
    http://amphibiaweb.org/declines/UV-B.html
    Save one animal and it doesn't change the world, but it surely changes the world for that one animal!

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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    Well I guess if nobody wants to discuss it fair enough. But that link is eleven years old and there have been many advances in scientific study since then. Perhaps it's being closed off to new information that causes people to lag behind in modern husbandry techniques.
    Is this forum not an appropriate place to discuss better ways to care for frogs?
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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    This forum is an appropriate place- but recent conversations have not been "appropriate" in tone and have been causing more disruption than learning. When it comes to technology being used with the care of living beings, there will always be debate.
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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    Debate is a good thing, surely? I didn't see what apparently turned into an argument, just some deleted comments and an apology.
    Then: There is no need to argue, but if you do want to prove your point you are welcome to do so in respectful manner in a separate thread. You are welcome to share your scientific data, nobody knows everything ( even vets**and personally I would love to hear new data I might not be aware yet.

    But apparently this invitation to start a separate thread to discuss new scientific discoveries in a respectful manner has now been retracted.
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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    Debate is fine when those debating can keep the posts courteous and informative. Lately they have been quickly turning argumentative and the "deleted posts" you referenced were ones that had dwindled down to including name calling which is not helpful in anyway to anyone.

    Generally starting a separate thread to try and gear the conversation back to it's original intent is fine but when the topic has been a hot button for some lately, we watch them carefully to make sure they also do not resort to inappropriate behavior. Sometimes others need time to let their blood cool down a bit, more threads can spread the fire so to speak.
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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    I do think it can be a quality discussion so long as it is kept polite. The other thread was not kept polite, hence the deleted post.

    There are current studies that still show both sides of the debate. Studies from 2014-2015 still show issues with embryonic development and death in amphibians when exposed to uv. Studies from 2014-2015 also support uv. There is some suggestion that pesticides in the environment inhibit the amphibians to the point that they do not properly shelter themselves or their eggs from uv, but that is still at the level of hypothesis and suggestion rather than having provided proof last I read. There are a few that would make interesting reads, but they cost money. Because they are fairly new, I have not found other sites who have purchased, read, and reviewed the study for others to be able to access some of the information for free yet.

    Either way, your frogs are thriving with UV, my frogs are thriving without UV and with calc +D3 supplements alone. Many people have the same experiences as both of us.
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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    Well, there are so many sides to this coin. Like here's a good one. Even our 3 unplanted tanks which are our whites(moe larry, and shemp), the beardies(monster and lil bruddah), or the pacman(bigweld) we also include a full spectrum bulb. Our belief if the closest to natural sun we can get, the better. Glass reflects uv, not absorbs it, remember this, so with nice clean glass, we still 'believe' that they absorb small amounts of all the uv no matter what. Keeping in mind uvb needs d3 and all that. The bulbs do not provide what they fully need. They aren't the sun, and no matter how hard we try with our planted viv's its still not real nature. So on top of all the uv everywhere we rotate supplements every other feeding. From regular calcium, to calcium+d3 to fill in the gaps. Then theres gut loading their food. Ah. Another odd thing we do. Well more my doing than the wifes. I like to do an electrolyte soak once a month for all my animals. We use zoo med electrolyte. Needed? Probably not. Is it good for their immune systems and full of other important vitamins they can soak in, yes.
    Many moons with snakes. About 3-4 years now with frogs. 2bps, mom wanted my red tail so i hooked her up, firebellies,red eyes, whites, pacman, anoles, longtails, and damaged beardies we adopted from petsmart. 2 casualties. 1 was a whites from petco in his dying throws from mbd, the other a baby pacman(poor aunt fanny) fell victim to a power outage while we were away. Also another reason i been banging my head over solar.
    But overall, no real health issues, good checkups, no, well anything. Maybe its overkill, but it works out great for us. So we think uv helps.

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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    So, if everyone has now calmed down.... While not a party to the recent heated arguments, I have seen incorrect advice being given lately which could do with being addressed and the way to address it is to try and give the correct information rather than attacking the person involved as that just causes bad feeling and an argumentative stance which it not conducive to a learning experience. I'd like to think that everyone on here is receptive to new information even if it changes what they thought they knew, I certainly am because it from this that we learn more about the subject that many are clearly passionate about. Opinions certainly vary, but opinions are not facts so perhaps we can straighten out a few scientifically verifiable facts that we can hopefully all agree on regarding this subject.

    To reiterate some of the comments from Dr. Ivan Alfonso on this thread: http://www.frogforum.net/showthread.php?t=24225

    Frogs need calcium. Without it they will suffer from a variety of maladies and will ultimately die. In the wild they would obtain this from a varied diet but in captivity with the most freely available feeders such as crickets, calcium is lacking and therefore must be supplemented, an easy task as feeders can be dusted with calcium and the animal cannot overdose so plenty can be given to ensure a sufficient amount.
    However, all the calcium in the world is ineffective unless the animal has vitamin d3 with which to process the calcium. In the wild this is obtained from sunlight. In captivity the caged animal is deprived of natural sunlight so two methods exist to supply the required d3, one is oral supplementation, the other is provision of UVB from artificial lighting.
    The problem with oral supplementation is threefold. Firstly, we don't know what a correct dose is. Even if we did there is no way of administering the correct dose via dusting of feeders. Secondly, it is possible to overdose so therefore harm the animal we are trying to keep healthy. Finally, it has now been proven the the oral (and unnatural) administering of d3 is far less efficient than originally thought. The consequence of all this is that it's impossible to give a frog the correct dose of d3 orally.
    UVB lighting has become by far the preferred way to provide d3 to frogs worldwide in zoos, institutions, breeding facilities and by hobbyists worldwide. The reason being is that it is the natural way in which the process occurs in the wild, it is far more efficient than oral supplementation and (as now has been proven), frogs can detect UVB through their eyes and so can regulate the amount of UVB they are exposed to. This means the correct amount can be obtained without overdose exactly as the frog would in the wild by varying their exposure to sunlight.
    Of the two methods it is clear, and scientifically proven, than UVB lighting is preferable to oral supplementation for the provision of vitamin d3. Added to this is the huge weight of anecdotal evidence showing the other benefits to animals that have provided with UVB lighting including colouration, display of natural activity, breeding success and overall health. We do also see a lot of threads on here with often young frogs suffering from a variety of undiagnosed health issues, there is a very good chance that many of these have been been cause by preventable deficiencies of calcium/d3.
    There are now many scientific papers available to help people decide on the UVB/d3 issue, I don't have time to trawl for them all but obviously people can do their own research. Here's a small selection:

    This one is particularly interesting as it shows that frogs provided with oral d3 still developed MBD showing it's inefficiency:

    http://www.amphibianark.org/pdf/Husb...quirements.pdf

    This one shows oral supplementation as ineffective compared to UVB in an animal that is very resistant to UVB:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20206712

    This one demonstrates that frogs are able to detect UVB (as well as the inefficiencies of oral supplementation)

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20206712

    This is a good read too:

    http://www.jzar.org/jzar/article/view/70/38


    With all the obvious proven and anecdotal reasons to provide UVB along with adequate cover for frogs it's difficult to understand why it should not be a standard part of modern husbandry, there seems no good reason to withhold it. The reasons given on the previous thread of decreased ventilation or inadequate plant growth are of course not reasons at all with the availability of compact bulbs, t5 and t8 tubes and even miniature fans. When you know you can improve the well-being of your charges by providing UVB even on a 'just in case' basis, is it really not worth providing just for the cost of a bulb?
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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    Here's a little more reading from a forum in the UK. Only just found this thread, but I think it's hugely indicative of the different husbandry techniques over here:

    Written in 2009.

    We're on the cusp of a change.
    It seems that at least here hobbyists have begun to open up to the idea that Amphibians could indeed utilise UVB and that they may infact benefit from exposure to it.
    This is going to be a rambling exploration

    First things first.
    Amphibians like all vertebrates require Calcium in their bodies in sufficient amounts to be able to function optimally and thrive. Calcium is needed for not only bone density but also functions within the muscles, blood, nervous system, organs and exchanges on a cellular level.
    Lack of Calcium is much more than just softer bones.
    - The efficiency of nerves and the nervous system is compromised as the body tries to ration out the Calcium it does have (Hence twitching toes/legs or spasms).
    - The ability for muscles to be controlled is damaged, (prolapses can be a direct result as the cloacal sphincter muscles cannot be maintained).
    - Hormonal regulation and/or homeostasis may be impaired, the animal may lose it's ability to maintain it's bodily balance or fail to breed despite appearing in good health outwardly as a deficiency renders it infertile or unable to respond to breeding cues. If the animal is able to breed it's offspring may be damaged from conception as a result of health problems in the adult animals.
    - Then the bones themselves, you'd be suprised to know how many fractures an otherwise normal looking and mobile amphibian can have. This may leave the animal in constant pain, or it may impair their ability to feed and breed in such a minor way that it is never questioned or suspected.


    Often the major argument amongst hobbyists to evidence "Good health" is that animals have bred...
    Unfortunately for many species of animals (and indeed plants) reproduction may often be the last ditch effort to ensure genes are passed on despite the health of the animal being dire and the living conditions almost unbearable.
    If you could not get these animals to breed in captivity where competition is minimal, parasitism is reduced, predation is non-existant and food is abundant, THEN you'd really have something to worry about!
    Breeding in captivity is not an indication of health nor 'happiness' in our animals. Sorry!


    Amphibians, like all vertebrates, require Vitamin D3 in their bodies in order to utilise dietary Calcium, I won't go into the D3 pathway and specifically how it is used by the body to regulate calcium uptake, you can read about that here;
    UV Lighting for Reptiles: Vitamin D synthesis in Ultraviolet Light

    So, knowing this we are faced with two options which are the crux of this issue. Outlining them I hope to make it clear why UVB exposure is the safest, most logical and feasible option.


    Dietary supplements.
    Vitamin D3 can be absorbed by the body via the gut, however, this route of uptake is unregulated and allows for overdose and the resulting bodily imbalance.
    The majority of amphibian keepers currently rely on multivitamin supplements to fulfill this role (although there are some who genuinely don't think it is needed for these animals!?!? and those who never use supplements).
    Supplements come in little plastic pots that most people keep near their vivaria or in the cupboards below, people buy in bulk to save money so may have tubs stored at room temperature and above for 6-12 or more months... Vitamins are the entire purpose of our use of multivitamins instead of plain calcium (which as a pure mineral does not degrade or denature in a pot).
    So then, we have a clear problem if we know that vitamins such as D3 are incredible fragile compounds, degraded or denatured by moisture, higher temperatures and exposure to atmospheric air. A tub of Nutrobal will be next to pointless after 6 months sat next to your viv and after 6 months worth of opening and closing, letting in moist atmospheric air...
    So on one hand this method has the potential for overdose but also the potential to be completely pointless if the product is not stored and used appropriately, but, there is no way of the average hobbyist knowing when or how fast this occurs...


    UVB exposure
    The joy of opting for UVB exposure rather than plain supplements is that not only can you actually buy a meter to measure the exact level you are using and actively check for degradation of your chosen D3 provider, BUT this pathway is self limited within the skin of the animal!!!

    Any Herptile in our care, amphibian or not, should be provided with a suitable environment in captivity this should include appropriate refugia - burrows/hiding spots, shade, foliage, caves, whatever. It should also include a full day/night cycle, the overall health of captive animals, their ability to breed and their hormonal balance is affected by their ability to experience Circadian Rhythms. (ALL animals whether nocturnal, diurnal or crepuscular). We should strive to provide a naturalistic light cycle including beneficial UVB (and UVA) exposure and we should design our vivaria to accomodate this.

    Many reluctant keepers use the argument of;
    "But they're nocturnal they would never be exposed to it!?!"
    Go to the wild and see it for yourself These animals sleep in the relative open even if they are truly nocturnal, your average treefrog sleeps on leaves or treetrunks exposed directly or indirectly (via reflection) to UVB.

    I can tell you that amphibians, like lizards for instance, can be more or less demanding in terms of UVB. Some species can be exposed to massive levels of UVB on a daily basis and still show room for improvement in their calcium levels (e.g: Canopy dwelling treefrog species), others can be exposed to short blasts of high UVB exposure once in a blue moon and have good calcium levels (e.g: Arid environment burrowing sps.)
    There is clearly a difference in tolerance to UVB exposure (meaning their skin may have greater resistance) and actual physical levels needed (meaning they may require a much greater overall exposure than other species to achieve the same level of "health") between individual species.


    Common sense must apply, vivariums may be constructed to provide naturalistic levels of exposure and cover as per the individual species.
    There is no single answer and there never will be.

    Just consider this, I have seen animals with no visible skeleton jumping around like there is no tomorrow and breeding. This does not mean that it is acceptable for these animals to subsist, to live under sub-lethal stresses and we will know about it eventually...
    The amphibian hobby does not seem as negative towards WC animals as others, I can think of no species which has yet been bred consistently for a number of generations with no injection of WC genes at some point.
    I can tell you that damage to offspring can be seen in the shorterm resulting directly from poorly kept adult stock, but no one is looking for it.

    Poor success in metamorphs is blamed on bad water or bad luck.
    1000 Amazonian milk frog eggs can be whittled down to 5 successful metamorphs a year later and people say "oh well that's why they lay so many"... No. They lay so many to get through metamorphosis AND have some survive predation. Juveniles are passed along so people don't get to see where they begin to fail to thrive, or breed.

    Frogs that look perfectly healthy can be walking around with a shattered pelvis (I've seen it...) and amplexing females nightly as they are healthy breeding animals!


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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    And here's where the full thread and discussion can be found:

    http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forum...y-musings.html
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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    Very interesting, thanks. I will ask, does anyone know if tree frogs are subject to burns from UVB?

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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    If you denied the animal the ability to take cover when it wishes it might not do it a lot of good, but that would entail a bare box which I hope nobody would do! Contrary to the myth that 'tree frogs don't require UVB because they are nocturnal', in truth they actually receive more than many diurnal animals due to the fact that they choose to sleep directly exposed. Here are some examples from my collection taken today:













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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    Nice frogs!

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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    Thanks Elly! The first frog is the Waxy Monkey Frog (Phyllomedusa sauvagii), a nocturnal species well known for basking all day in the hot sun. I actually emailed John Courteney-Smith from Arcadia in the UK (a man who does a huge amount of research on the subject of UVB!) to ask him his opinion on the correct light to provide to simulate what this species receives in the wild. He has kindly allowed me to share his very detailed response below. The figures concerned are of course specific to this frog, but the methods used are appropriate to all species denied natural sunlight in captivity and of course reinforces the need to provide UVB to our captive frogs. This is to be published formally later this year:

    Hi, A great question and one that has a rather simplistic answer but requires some study and implementation to really get things right.

    Basically as with every aspect of exotic animal care we have to look to the actual evolved (core) needs of a species, per species and subspecies! We need to look intricately at the needs and actions of the species including the actual everyday patterns of behaviour per season.

    We have to look to the wild environment, the average weather patterns and seasonal cycles and of course the average solar index of the given locality per season and over as long a period of time as records allow. this is research gold to the exotic animal keeper.

    We look at rainfall, the quantity and longevity of the rainy season or seasons, we look at wind factor and the given elevation above sea level per species(the higher a species is found the higher the available index will potentially be). We look the wild diet and method of water ingestion whether it is lapped directly from pools or if it is obtained from rain rivulets running down a tree or from capillary action collected across the body or even from the simple opening of the mouth in the rain. We should also factor in the 'nutritional content' of wild water, it is far from 'pure'! No it will contain Ca and many other minerals. This can and does play an active roll in nutritional provision.

    In short we look at every aspect of the habits and environment of the wild species or subspecies and make good notes. From these we will see just how the seasons can effect a species. In the case of P sauvagii we can see a direct link between the changing of the seasons of the rather harsh environments in which they live and their resting and breeding cycles.

    We can see that they obtain a vast solar index in the wild and can see how they have adapted to life in this rather hot, quite dry and windy place by evolving a level of protection against and a subsequent use for the sun. This of course comes from the waxy secretion that is wiped over the body. This does not just stop the frog from drying out as was once thought but it also acts a functioning sunblock, however this important evolutionary change is not an indication to the species lack of solar requirement! No, rather this clever adaption has in a similar way to the thick skins of arid lizard species allowed the frog to take what it needs from the sun in the safest method possible. It really is a case of 'six and two threes'. Either you have a thin skin and develop a crepuscular tendency and pop out and energise quickly or you have a thick skin and spend a much longer period of time in the sun or in the case of this group, you develop the ability to use 'sunscreen'. The biological changes after exposure are still largely the same, these are just differing ways of obtaining the required dose of energy. Remember, just because an animal is found asleep by day does not mean that it has evolved to live in the dark! No just as humans burn when asleep in the sun the core biological processes still play out in terms of UVB to D3. You do not have to be awake to benefit in full from the energy of the sun.

    So how do we implement this knowledge into our at home enclosures? Well it really is very simple indeed. We use the knowledge that we have of the wild animal proactively. This is always our 'base' point. This is the place where we can start to build our tech around the animal in ITS enclosure as this is of course the actual evolved and as such actual 'need' of the species. For instance, if a species has evolved to thrive in full exposure under a solar index of 7-8 for 10 months of the year and at a thermal daily peak of say 34-36 and obtain hydration via mist and capillary action then this is its biological need. No matter what we do as keepers this will always be their biological need and we must provide for it.

    So if we supplied that species with an index of 2-3 for 6 hours a day and ran the viv at 30 and left a bowl of water on the floor for it to drink from we could not possibly be catering for its wild evolved biological needs. The animal would be in a real sense 'under run' or under provided for. This is where nutritional disease starts its long and chronic progression, whether this disease manifests from a lack of minerals and as such poor organ and bone health or a lack of water soluble vitamins or even poor organ function from the lack of hydration. The clues to great captive care really are hidden in the wild.

    Reversely this wild need will show the upper limits of the species evolved solar protection method. As such if we know a species basks at an index of 5 and we provide 15 we will be over providing for the species, pushing through the animals solar protection and we will risk just as with humans skin cancers and other biological problems. By over providing we do nothing other than put the animal at risk.



    In the case of this highly evolved frog we already know that they like it hot and dry for most of the year and have a regimented breeding cycle that is weather specific. We can see that they are opportunistic feeders and will take food of many differing forms, all adding into their core nutritional provision over their lifespan (we should seek to mimic this also). We can see that temps are rather prone to change in the wild but lets take an average of 28 degrees as a generally safe basking temp. This can of course be increased just before cycling right up to 34-36 depending on the locality of the frog to be kept. We can see that UV Indexes for most of the year are shown as 'extreme' that means 9-11. However we should not seek to irradiate the poor thing to this level in the confines of captivity. This is where a very fine line is drawn.

    If 9-11 is the wild need then surely we should provide 9-11 in captivity? Well the answer is of course in a sense yes and no. A frog in the wild has a vast space to move around and to find areas of strong sunshine and of course reversely to find good gradients into shade. We must also remember that light and as such UV is not simply on or off, no, it has billions of gradients in-between, each one usable in an intricate way by the animal. Light reflects off of everything so solar energy is made available in a myriad of graduations and angles. UV bouncing up from a wet leaf or light stone and hitting the flanks and undersides of a species is just as important and active as the light that hits it back!

    What about the frogs waxy secretion does this indicate that the frog is protecting itself against the sun and therefore has no use for it? To this we have to say an emphatic no. The level of protection against the sun is there so that the animal can bask safely and still be able to obtain essential solar energy and all of the biological processes that this causes. If we underprovide for this index the level of energy will not be able to penetrate through the secretion and go on to have the positive interaction that the frog has evolved to utilise. This is exactly the same for the green igg or the bearded dragon or any other solar reliant species. In the case of the green iguana of course they have evolved a need for and a level of protection against the sun via the thick almost armour like skin. If the evolved total index is not provided for correctly we cannot push through this level of protection and there will be a potential shortfall in UVB exposure to D3 production (D3 cycle).

    Ok, so we take an average, unless you have a room sized enclosure for your frogs it will always be hard to provide a safe graduation from the vast wild power into cool and shade, as such we use an average and try our best to cause this usable sense of the wild in the enclosure size that we have. As we know UVB is a weak wavelength that decreases in power as light travels forward. It is also impeded by plastics, glass and of course reduced in potency or index by a mesh. So we have to decide upon a basking index, match that with a basking area in the viv and then choose a lamp that will provide for that index at that basking area or in your case 'perch'.



    This of course has to be measurable. So we use a solarmeter 6.5 to check the actual index and monitor this over the year. Lets say that due to the level of protection against and the requirement for a specific index and coupled with daily activity patterns and or course foliage cover etc that we should seek to provide an upper index basking zone of 5-6. That sounds about right to me. You would therefore choose a lamp that projects that index towards your basking area and then light the area of projection accordingly by using broadleaf live plants and branches. We choose a lamp or lamps that are shorter than the viv and as such create 'light and shade' in which the frog can accurately self regulate. Then we sit back and watch. If the frog is constantly hiding after the settling in period and skulking about in the shadows then the index could be too high for its needs, reversely if it is sitting up as high as it can right under the lamp, then move the perch up half an inch at a time until it stops reaching forward but never exceed the 'safe' index, lets say 8.

    As with all of these things it is never a single simple answer that suits all, we can have a rough guess as to what is needed but we need tools to take measurements to become accurate with regard to provision.

    In most cases a stat controlled halogen heat source fitted alongside a D3 linear or UVFLOOD is indeed required to provide the wild re-created index. Jungle Dawn can be used alongside this lamp to increase further visible light, increase the CRI an of course cause live plants to flourish.

    Then of course you can manipulate heat, light and lighting periods to cause the seasonal changes that are required for breeding. Certainly with this group if you are lucky enough to have your breeding plans coincide with a local drop in barometric pressure and a storm it would be a great aid to the rain chamber!


    John Courteney-Smith, Arcadia Reptile
    Last edited by Diver; September 26th, 2015 at 05:28 AM.
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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    Interesting letter. But is there a possibility that the frogs don't necessarily know what they need, UVB-wise? For instance the chance that they might be basking in the light simply because it's warm?

    In the case of White's, who have a very broad range and greys who may be a little active in the day, but it's hard to say how much, I'd have to guess that both these frogs have UVB requirements below to far below Waxies.

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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    It would seem that as it's been proven that frogs can detect UVB through their eyes, that mechanism has evolved in order that they are able to regulate their exposure. This can be clearly seen in the behaviour of captive animals for example in my own collection where the heat is pretty much uniform (the room itself is temperature controlled).
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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    Waxy monkeys are not the greatest example to use unless dealing specifically with waxy monkeys, particularly for the reasons you've already listed into your post (the fact that they make their own sunscreen, different than any other species of amphibia.)

    Here is some reading material you should probably take into consideration -

    Species: Common Toad (Bufo bufo)Effects of UV-B: Exposure to UV-B increases embryo mortality and reduces larval survivalReferences: Lizana and Pedraza (1998); Häkkinen et al. (2001)

    Species: Western Toad (Bufo boreas)
    Effects of UV-B: Exposure to UV-B increases embryo mortality, causes developmental abnormalities and hampers antipredator behaviorSynergism: Exposure to high levels of UV-B increases susceptibility of embryos to infection by a parasitic fungus Saprolignia ferixReferences: Worrest and Kimeldorf (1976); Blaustein et al. (1994); Kats et al. (2000); Kiesecker and Blaustein (1995); Kiesecker et al. (2001

    Species: Peron's Tree Frog (Litoria peronii)Effects of UV-B: Adult and larval frogs show behavioral avoidance of high levels of UV-BReferences: van de Mortel and Buttemer (1998)

    Species: Verreaux's Tree Frog (Litoria verreauxii)Effects of UV-B: Exposure to UV-B increases embryo mortalityReferences: Broomhall et al. (2000)

    Species: Pacific Treefrog (Pseudacris regilla)Effects of UV-B: Exposure to UV-B causes developmental and physiological abnormalities and reduces larval survivalSynergism: Exposure to UV-B in combination with high levels of nitrates reduces larval survivalReferences:Hays et al. (1996); Ovaska et al. (1997); Hatch and Blaustein 2003

    Species: Moor Frog (Rana arvalis)Effects of UV-B: Exposure to UV-B increases embryo mortalityReferences: Häkkinen et al. (2001)

    Species: Common Froglet (Crinia signifera)Effects of UV-B: Exposure to UV-B increases embryo mortalityReferences: Broomhall et al. (2000)

    Species: California treefrog (Hyla cadaverina)Effects of UV-B: Exposure to UV-B increases embryo mortalityReferences: Anzalone et al. (1998)

    Gray Treefrog (Hyla chrysoscelis)Effects of UV-B: Exposure to UV-B causes embryonic deformitiesReferences: Starnes et al. (2000)

    Species: Green and Golden Bell Frog (Litoria aurea)Effects of UV-B: Adult and larval frogs show behavioral avoidance of high levels of UV-BReferences: van de Mortel and Buttemer (1998)



    None of these studies have been contested and have not been reviewed, therefore cannot be considered outdated.

    http://arcadia-reptile.com/jungle-dawn-led/ - Being a Brit, you should know this company well. They have put a lot of research into the best lighting for vivariums and the animals they contain. A quote from their page -
    The Arcadia Jungle Dawn is perfect for use in or over all Amphibian setups and especially those in which live plants are grown. It can also be used with day geckos, crested geckos, chameleons, snakes and all other reptiles and amphibians where a high quality non UV emitting light is required.
    I received this information from a batrachologist that I had and hoping he will come on at some point to discuss this some more.

    Either way, I have seen some troubling suggestions that supplements are bad, and this is NOT TRUE.
    Supplements are absolutely necessary when dealing with captive animals. There is no way (even with UVB lighting) that we can replicate their wild diet without the addition of supplements.

    If you want to discuss anecdotal evidence as you've been regularly posting, which is pretty much worthless, then I can easily tell you that I have NEVER seen a case of MBD in frogs caused by deprivation of UVB. However, I have seen many cases, on multiple forums and facebook groups, of people asking for help with their MBD frogs as a result of deprivation of supplements. In some cases, UV LIGHTING WAS PROVIDED.
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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    I think you may be struggling with understanding much of the above information, can I suggest you go back over it and if you have any specific questions I'll do my best to help.

    To address your concerns above, I do recall reading most of those studies from 15+ years ago, they were testing the effects of subjecting amphibians to EXCESSIVE UVB to gauge the effects, much like the study I posted from the Manchester museum. I would not advocate subjecting frogs to excessive UVB exposure from which they cannot escape. The point is to try and recreate the UVB exposure of the wild with places to take cover and therefore self regulate. I think that's very clearly stated.

    I am aware of the company Arcadia, yes. You may have missed who the correspondence outlining the method for determining the correct UVB exposure was from

    You seem confused about supplements and their purpose. The ONLY supplement that has at any time been called into question is the ORAL SUPPLEMENT OF VITAMIN D3 as an artificial replacement for the natural production of D3 via UVB. No other supplementation has been called into question, in fact calcium for instance is a hugely important supplement as it is lacking in the common feeder provided. I'm not sure how you missed that, again it's deliberately very clear and is in fact the very substance of the discussion.

    I think again your last comment is because you're not understanding about supplements. If one provides UVB but does NOT provide calcium, then yes MBD will develop. Calcium should always be given, it is vitamin D3 that is necessary for the calcium to be utilised by the animal. The thread's purpose is to show that it has been scientifically proven that UVB (and hence the animal's own production of D3) rather than oral D3 supplements is the correct method.

    Hope that helps
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