Uvb and D3

[elly]

Nice frogs!

[Diver]

Thanks Elly! The first frog is the Waxy Monkey Frog (Phyllomedusa sauvagii), a nocturnal species well known for basking all day in the hot sun. I actually emailed John Courteney-Smith from Arcadia in the UK (a man who does a huge amount of research on the subject of UVB!) to ask him his opinion on the correct light to provide to simulate what this species receives in the wild. He has kindly allowed me to share his very detailed response below. The figures concerned are of course specific to this frog, but the methods used are appropriate to all species denied natural sunlight in captivity and of course reinforces the need to provide UVB to our captive frogs. This is to be published formally later this year:

Hi, A great question and one that has a rather simplistic answer but requires some study and implementation to really get things right.

Basically as with every aspect of exotic animal care we have to look to the actual evolved (core) needs of a species, per species and subspecies! We need to look intricately at the needs and actions of the species including the actual everyday patterns of behaviour per season.

We have to look to the wild environment, the average weather patterns and seasonal cycles and of course the average solar index of the given locality per season and over as long a period of time as records allow. this is research gold to the exotic animal keeper.

We look at rainfall, the quantity and longevity of the rainy season or seasons, we look at wind factor and the given elevation above sea level per species(the higher a species is found the higher the available index will potentially be). We look the wild diet and method of water ingestion whether it is lapped directly from pools or if it is obtained from rain rivulets running down a tree or from capillary action collected across the body or even from the simple opening of the mouth in the rain. We should also factor in the 'nutritional content' of wild water, it is far from 'pure'! No it will contain Ca and many other minerals. This can and does play an active roll in nutritional provision.

In short we look at every aspect of the habits and environment of the wild species or subspecies and make good notes. From these we will see just how the seasons can effect a species. In the case of P sauvagii we can see a direct link between the changing of the seasons of the rather harsh environments in which they live and their resting and breeding cycles.

We can see that they obtain a vast solar index in the wild and can see how they have adapted to life in this rather hot, quite dry and windy place by evolving a level of protection against and a subsequent use for the sun. This of course comes from the waxy secretion that is wiped over the body. This does not just stop the frog from drying out as was once thought but it also acts a functioning sunblock, however this important evolutionary change is not an indication to the species lack of solar requirement! No, rather this clever adaption has in a similar way to the thick skins of arid lizard species allowed the frog to take what it needs from the sun in the safest method possible. It really is a case of 'six and two threes'. Either you have a thin skin and develop a crepuscular tendency and pop out and energise quickly or you have a thick skin and spend a much longer period of time in the sun or in the case of this group, you develop the ability to use 'sunscreen'. The biological changes after exposure are still largely the same, these are just differing ways of obtaining the required dose of energy. Remember, just because an animal is found asleep by day does not mean that it has evolved to live in the dark! No just as humans burn when asleep in the sun the core biological processes still play out in terms of UVB to D3. You do not have to be awake to benefit in full from the energy of the sun.

So how do we implement this knowledge into our at home enclosures? Well it really is very simple indeed. We use the knowledge that we have of the wild animal proactively. This is always our 'base' point. This is the place where we can start to build our tech around the animal in ITS enclosure as this is of course the actual evolved and as such actual 'need' of the species. For instance, if a species has evolved to thrive in full exposure under a solar index of 7-8 for 10 months of the year and at a thermal daily peak of say 34-36 and obtain hydration via mist and capillary action then this is its biological need. No matter what we do as keepers this will always be their biological need and we must provide for it.

So if we supplied that species with an index of 2-3 for 6 hours a day and ran the viv at 30 and left a bowl of water on the floor for it to drink from we could not possibly be catering for its wild evolved biological needs. The animal would be in a real sense 'under run' or under provided for. This is where nutritional disease starts its long and chronic progression, whether this disease manifests from a lack of minerals and as such poor organ and bone health or a lack of water soluble vitamins or even poor organ function from the lack of hydration. The clues to great captive care really are hidden in the wild.

Reversely this wild need will show the upper limits of the species evolved solar protection method. As such if we know a species basks at an index of 5 and we provide 15 we will be over providing for the species, pushing through the animals solar protection and we will risk just as with humans skin cancers and other biological problems. By over providing we do nothing other than put the animal at risk.


In the case of this highly evolved frog we already know that they like it hot and dry for most of the year and have a regimented breeding cycle that is weather specific. We can see that they are opportunistic feeders and will take food of many differing forms, all adding into their core nutritional provision over their lifespan (we should seek to mimic this also). We can see that temps are rather prone to change in the wild but lets take an average of 28 degrees as a generally safe basking temp. This can of course be increased just before cycling right up to 34-36 depending on the locality of the frog to be kept. We can see that UV Indexes for most of the year are shown as 'extreme' that means 9-11. However we should not seek to irradiate the poor thing to this level in the confines of captivity. This is where a very fine line is drawn.

If 9-11 is the wild need then surely we should provide 9-11 in captivity? Well the answer is of course in a sense yes and no. A frog in the wild has a vast space to move around and to find areas of strong sunshine and of course reversely to find good gradients into shade. We must also remember that light and as such UV is not simply on or off, no, it has billions of gradients in-between, each one usable in an intricate way by the animal. Light reflects off of everything so solar energy is made available in a myriad of graduations and angles. UV bouncing up from a wet leaf or light stone and hitting the flanks and undersides of a species is just as important and active as the light that hits it back!

What about the frogs waxy secretion does this indicate that the frog is protecting itself against the sun and therefore has no use for it? To this we have to say an emphatic no. The level of protection against the sun is there so that the animal can bask safely and still be able to obtain essential solar energy and all of the biological processes that this causes. If we underprovide for this index the level of energy will not be able to penetrate through the secretion and go on to have the positive interaction that the frog has evolved to utilise. This is exactly the same for the green igg or the bearded dragon or any other solar reliant species. In the case of the green iguana of course they have evolved a need for and a level of protection against the sun via the thick almost armour like skin. If the evolved total index is not provided for correctly we cannot push through this level of protection and there will be a potential shortfall in UVB exposure to D3 production (D3 cycle).

Ok, so we take an average, unless you have a room sized enclosure for your frogs it will always be hard to provide a safe graduation from the vast wild power into cool and shade, as such we use an average and try our best to cause this usable sense of the wild in the enclosure size that we have. As we know UVB is a weak wavelength that decreases in power as light travels forward. It is also impeded by plastics, glass and of course reduced in potency or index by a mesh. So we have to decide upon a basking index, match that with a basking area in the viv and then choose a lamp that will provide for that index at that basking area or in your case 'perch'.


This of course has to be measurable. So we use a solarmeter 6.5 to check the actual index and monitor this over the year. Lets say that due to the level of protection against and the requirement for a specific index and coupled with daily activity patterns and or course foliage cover etc that we should seek to provide an upper index basking zone of 5-6. That sounds about right to me. You would therefore choose a lamp that projects that index towards your basking area and then light the area of projection accordingly by using broadleaf live plants and branches. We choose a lamp or lamps that are shorter than the viv and as such create 'light and shade' in which the frog can accurately self regulate. Then we sit back and watch. If the frog is constantly hiding after the settling in period and skulking about in the shadows then the index could be too high for its needs, reversely if it is sitting up as high as it can right under the lamp, then move the perch up half an inch at a time until it stops reaching forward but never exceed the 'safe' index, lets say 8.

As with all of these things it is never a single simple answer that suits all, we can have a rough guess as to what is needed but we need tools to take measurements to become accurate with regard to provision.

In most cases a stat controlled halogen heat source fitted alongside a D3 linear or UVFLOOD is indeed required to provide the wild re-created index. Jungle Dawn can be used alongside this lamp to increase further visible light, increase the CRI an of course cause live plants to flourish.

Then of course you can manipulate heat, light and lighting periods to cause the seasonal changes that are required for breeding. Certainly with this group if you are lucky enough to have your breeding plans coincide with a local drop in barometric pressure and a storm it would be a great aid to the rain chamber!

John Courteney-Smith, Arcadia Reptile

[elly]

Interesting letter. But is there a possibility that the frogs don't necessarily know what they need, UVB-wise? For instance the chance that they might be basking in the light simply because it's warm?

In the case of White's, who have a very broad range and greys who may be a little active in the day, but it's hard to say how much, I'd have to guess that both these frogs have UVB requirements below to far below Waxies.

[Diver]

It would seem that as it's been proven that frogs can detect UVB through their eyes, that mechanism has evolved in order that they are able to regulate their exposure. This can be clearly seen in the behaviour of captive animals for example in my own collection where the heat is pretty much uniform (the room itself is temperature controlled).

[LilyPad]

Waxy monkeys are not the greatest example to use unless dealing specifically with waxy monkeys, particularly for the reasons you've already listed into your post (the fact that they make their own sunscreen, different than any other species of amphibia.)

Here is some reading material you should probably take into consideration -

Species: Common Toad (Bufo bufo)Effects of UV-B: Exposure to UV-B increases embryo mortality and reduces larval survivalReferences: Lizana and Pedraza (1998); Häkkinen et al. (2001)

Species: Western Toad (Bufo boreas)
Effects of UV-B: Exposure to UV-B increases embryo mortality, causes developmental abnormalities and hampers antipredator behaviorSynergism: Exposure to high levels of UV-B increases susceptibility of embryos to infection by a parasitic fungus Saprolignia ferixReferences: Worrest and Kimeldorf (1976); Blaustein et al. (1994); Kats et al. (2000); Kiesecker and Blaustein (1995); Kiesecker et al. (2001

Species: Peron's Tree Frog (Litoria peronii)Effects of UV-B: Adult and larval frogs show behavioral avoidance of high levels of UV-BReferences: van de Mortel and Buttemer (1998)

Species: Verreaux's Tree Frog (Litoria verreauxii)Effects of UV-B: Exposure to UV-B increases embryo mortalityReferences: Broomhall et al. (2000)

Species: Pacific Treefrog (Pseudacris regilla)Effects of UV-B: Exposure to UV-B causes developmental and physiological abnormalities and reduces larval survivalSynergism: Exposure to UV-B in combination with high levels of nitrates reduces larval survivalReferences:Hays et al. (1996); Ovaska et al. (1997); Hatch and Blaustein 2003

Species: Moor Frog (Rana arvalis)Effects of UV-B: Exposure to UV-B increases embryo mortalityReferences: Häkkinen et al. (2001)

Species: Common Froglet (Crinia signifera)Effects of UV-B: Exposure to UV-B increases embryo mortalityReferences: Broomhall et al. (2000)

Species: California treefrog (Hyla cadaverina)Effects of UV-B: Exposure to UV-B increases embryo mortalityReferences: Anzalone et al. (1998)

Gray Treefrog (Hyla chrysoscelis)Effects of UV-B: Exposure to UV-B causes embryonic deformitiesReferences: Starnes et al. (2000)

Species: Green and Golden Bell Frog (Litoria aurea)Effects of UV-B: Adult and larval frogs show behavioral avoidance of high levels of UV-BReferences: van de Mortel and Buttemer (1998)



None of these studies have been contested and have not been reviewed, therefore cannot be considered outdated.

http://arcadia-reptile.com/jungle-dawn-led/ - Being a Brit, you should know this company well. They have put a lot of research into the best lighting for vivariums and the animals they contain. A quote from their page -

The Arcadia Jungle Dawn is perfect for use in or over all Amphibian setups and especially those in which live plants are grown. It can also be used with day geckos, crested geckos, chameleons, snakes and all other reptiles and amphibians where a high quality non UV emitting light is required.

I received this information from a batrachologist that I had and hoping he will come on at some point to discuss this some more.

Either way, I have seen some troubling suggestions that supplements are bad, and this is NOT TRUE. Supplements are absolutely necessary when dealing with captive animals. There is no way (even with UVB lighting) that we can replicate their wild diet without the addition of supplements.

If you want to discuss anecdotal evidence as you've been regularly posting, which is pretty much worthless, then I can easily tell you that I have NEVER seen a case of MBD in frogs caused by deprivation of UVB. However, I have seen many cases, on multiple forums and facebook groups, of people asking for help with their MBD frogs as a result of deprivation of supplements. In some cases, UV LIGHTING WAS PROVIDED.

[Diver]

I think you may be struggling with understanding much of the above information, can I suggest you go back over it and if you have any specific questions I'll do my best to help.

To address your concerns above, I do recall reading most of those studies from 15+ years ago, they were testing the effects of subjecting amphibians to EXCESSIVE UVB to gauge the effects, much like the study I posted from the Manchester museum. I would not advocate subjecting frogs to excessive UVB exposure from which they cannot escape. The point is to try and recreate the UVB exposure of the wild with places to take cover and therefore self regulate. I think that's very clearly stated.

I am aware of the company Arcadia, yes. You may have missed who the correspondence outlining the method for determining the correct UVB exposure was from

You seem confused about supplements and their purpose. The ONLY supplement that has at any time been called into question is the ORAL SUPPLEMENT OF VITAMIN D3 as an artificial replacement for the natural production of D3 via UVB. No other supplementation has been called into question, in fact calcium for instance is a hugely important supplement as it is lacking in the common feeder provided. I'm not sure how you missed that, again it's deliberately very clear and is in fact the very substance of the discussion.

I think again your last comment is because you're not understanding about supplements. If one provides UVB but does NOT provide calcium, then yes MBD will develop. Calcium should always be given, it is vitamin D3 that is necessary for the calcium to be utilised by the animal. The thread's purpose is to show that it has been scientifically proven that UVB (and hence the animal's own production of D3) rather than oral D3 supplements is the correct method.

Hope that helps

[Monkey Business]

Thank you for this info specifically about waxies. I am supplying via a UVB bulb about 3 hours per day and my guys do sleep at the top, just under it. I do not have a meter to get readings so I will do that.

I keep and breed parrots and my husband is an avian vet, so we are able to check things like bone density at will. Many of the same things seem to apply, as these are also arboreal creatures of various habitats (rainforest, Savannah, etc.). Parrots easily overdose on D as do all creatures since it is a fat soluble vitamin and the excess is not excreted like vitamin C for instance.

So the best results by far are obtained by giving calcium without D and exposing the birds to REAL sunlight at least one hour per week. Tons of studies on this that are not for this forum.

In an attempt to do the same, I take my frog enclosure outside into the sun (easy as it is a mesh cage) for about an hour once a week. Only once did I have a frog move from the top down to a leaf where he got partial exposure; I see that as an indication that they are indeed "aware" of the sun even when sleeping.

We have no way of knowing if commercial bulbs provide everything that the natural sun does so I feel this is a prudent strategy.

(PS although I do not keep them, I would have to assume that even floor dwellers like dart frogs would encounter dappled sunlight and I don't think they should be completely deprived of that-purely an opinion)

[Diver]

http://arcadia-reptile.com/jungle-dawn-led/ - Being a Brit, you should know this company well. They have put a lot of research into the best lighting for vivariums and the animals they contain. A quote from their page -

I received this information from a batrachologist that I had and hoping he will come on at some point to discuss this some more.

I just realised that your misunderstanding of the product description for Arcadia Jungle Dawn led lights may lead others to believe that Arcadia, a company as you rightly say have 'put a lot of research into the best lighting for vivariums and the animals they contain' DON'T recommend UVB lighting for 'day geckos, crested geckos, chameleons, snakes and all other reptiles and amphibians'. I can assure you that in this you are ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT. Jungle Dawns are an excellent full spectrum light source that is used in conjunction with UVB. On Arcadia's website, they have a number of well researched and described recommendations for lighting for a good number of species, all including UVB:

American Green Tree Frog.

http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/wp-co...green-frog.jpg

Horned Frog

http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/wp-co...orned-frog.jpg

Fire Bellied Toad

http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/wp-co...belly-toad.jpg

Leucomelas Dart Frog

http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/wp-co...-dart-frog.jpg

Day Geckos

http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/wp-co...-day-gecko.jpg

Crested Gecko

http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/wp-co...sted-gecko.jpg

Yemen Chameleon

http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/wp-co...-chameleon.jpg

Corn snake

http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/wp-co...corn-snake.jpg


There are many, many more and are a really useful resource.

I'm trying to explain the subject matter in as simple terms as possible but I'm concerned that you don't seem to be able to grasp the information. It's probably my fault, but I'm not sure how I can explain things more simply? As I said, if there's any part you're still not understanding, feel free to ask any specific questions.

[deranged chipmunk]

So, i read and re-read each article you linked to, and yes, i understood them fully. Not one of the studies or articles you posted state that UVB lighting is a REQUIREMENT for amphibians. i won't debate whether or not it 'could' be beneficial, because i do believe SOME species could benefit from it, but not ALL, as you seem to state. I am also bearing in mind that, with the exception of the studies on Agalychnis callidryas and Leptodactylus fallax, everything else you posted was purely anecdotal, and these 2 studies weren't very conclusive. This, I found surprising, since you claim an abundance of scientific information proving that it is a requirement. And yes, i did noticed that you accepted anecdotal evidence in one of yours posts. You continually push this article: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20206712 which is on Bearded dragons. While their biology MAY be similar, this discussion is about amphibians. I could post literally thousands of articles on the requirement of UV lighting in humans, but it's not quite the same now is it? The first post you linked to, referring to MBD, Jeff posted information from Dr. Ivan Alfonso, also about bearded dragons. Lastly, you quoted an email from John Courteney-Smith from Arcadia. While Mr. Courteney-Smith is a brilliant person, I do question whether or not there is a conflict of interest there, since he does have quite substantial investment in UV lighting that he does need to recoup. I'm sure you can understand my doubt referring to his email.

All that being said, nobody is saying that UVB is worthless and should just be outright denied, we just don't tell people it is MANDATORY to give ALL AMPHIBIANS UVB lighting. In this day and age, and in the current economies, people are trying to live and enjoy life with their froggy friends on what limited budgets they have. The addition of an extra lighting fixture,bulb replacement once to twice annually (some UVB bulbs can be quite costly), and the added power consumption can drive a potential new frogger away from the hobby before they even begin. And I find that just sad.

We have a saying here in the U.S. 'there's more than one way to skin a cat'. Gruesome, I know, but it is a saying that I live by, whether it be in the frogging hobby, my fish, my plants, whatever. It just means that there is always more than one way to do things. I preach that constantly. The reason I bring this up is this; you say that with all the scientific and anecdotal evidence showing the benefits of UVB, why don't we as a hobby make it mandatory? Here's your answer: because there is just as much, if not more, that today's high quality supplements (Repashy calcium plus, dedrocare line) work just as well. You mention that Mr. Courteney-Smith has done extensive research on the effects of UVB, do you not believe that the companies producing high quality supplements do not as well? It's not some redneck living in a mobile home somewhere, just tossing powders into cups. Thousands upon thousands of keepers worldwide use oral supplements without any issue whatsoever. I personally, have a hard time understanding why you totally discount that much anecdotal evidence. But, as I said, there's more than one way to skin a cat. You have your way, others have theirs. Neither is 100% wrong, neither is 100% correct.

The other reason some of us do not push UVB as a requirement is that so often, UVB is misused. I can preach until I turn blue that you should put UVB over a tank, however, unless I actually put it above a tank, there's no guarantee that it will not go over a tank that has plexiglass or lexan covering the top to help with humidity, or high iron content glass. I can preach about burn in times, but so few actually do it. So here is a scenario for you: Mrs. Jones just bought a pair of red eye tree frogs. She went all out. Huge tank, live plants, UVB, and calcium only supplements, as per someone's recommendation. Two months later, Mr. Jones loses his job. Money is tight. Unemployment just isn't cutting it. Luckily, Mrs. Jones has been raising crickets for her frogs, so the staple food is not an issue, but a week ago, the uv bulb burned out on the enclosure. The Jones don't have the money to replace it. Now that the frogs are only getting calcium, they are lacking D3 supplementation. Who suffers? The frogs. I apologize that this got to rambling, I tend to do that sometimes lol. The point is, Mrs. Jones was 'only doing what she was told'. At least that is her comment when she comes on the forum to ask why her frogs were so healthy just a few weeks ago, and now they have no energy. She never even mentions the fact that light burnt out, because she doesn't truly understand why she has it in the first place. She answers yes to 'do you supplement when you feed', because she is, but neglects to mention calcium only. I know, a slightly over dramatic example, but I think you can see my point here. And believe me, this does, and HAS happened. Just another reason why, when asked, I tell someone it's not a mandatory piece of equipment, provided you dust with calcium/d3.


Basically, my whole point to this post was:

There's more than one way to skin a cat. I think maybe both sides of the debate should remember that.