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Thread: Uvb and D3

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    Quote Originally Posted by LilyPad View Post
    http://arcadia-reptile.com/jungle-dawn-led/ - Being a Brit, you should know this company well. They have put a lot of research into the best lighting for vivariums and the animals they contain. A quote from their page -

    I received this information from a batrachologist that I had and hoping he will come on at some point to discuss this some more.

    I just realised that your misunderstanding of the product description for Arcadia Jungle Dawn led lights may lead others to believe that Arcadia, a company as you rightly say have 'put a lot of research into the best lighting for vivariums and the animals they contain' DON'T recommend UVB lighting for 'day geckos, crested geckos, chameleons, snakes and all other reptiles and amphibians'. I can assure you that in this you are ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT. Jungle Dawns are an excellent full spectrum light source that is used in conjunction with UVB. On Arcadia's website, they have a number of well researched and described recommendations for lighting for a good number of species, all including UVB:

    American Green Tree Frog.

    http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/wp-co...green-frog.jpg

    Horned Frog

    http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/wp-co...orned-frog.jpg

    Fire Bellied Toad

    http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/wp-co...belly-toad.jpg

    Leucomelas Dart Frog

    http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/wp-co...-dart-frog.jpg

    Day Geckos

    http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/wp-co...-day-gecko.jpg

    Crested Gecko

    http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/wp-co...sted-gecko.jpg

    Yemen Chameleon

    http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/wp-co...-chameleon.jpg

    Corn snake

    http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/wp-co...corn-snake.jpg


    There are many, many more and are a really useful resource.

    I'm trying to explain the subject matter in as simple terms as possible but I'm concerned that you don't seem to be able to grasp the information. It's probably my fault, but I'm not sure how I can explain things more simply? As I said, if there's any part you're still not understanding, feel free to ask any specific questions.
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  3. #22

    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    So, i read and re-read each article you linked to, and yes, i understood them fully. Not one of the studies or articles you posted state that UVB lighting is a REQUIREMENT for amphibians. i won't debate whether or not it 'could' be beneficial, because i do believe SOME species could benefit from it, but not ALL, as you seem to state. I am also bearing in mind that, with the exception of the studies on Agalychnis callidryas and Leptodactylus fallax, everything else you posted was purely anecdotal, and these 2 studies weren't very conclusive. This, I found surprising, since you claim an abundance of scientific information proving that it is a requirement. And yes, i did noticed that you accepted anecdotal evidence in one of yours posts. You continually push this article: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20206712 which is on Bearded dragons. While their biology MAY be similar, this discussion is about amphibians. I could post literally thousands of articles on the requirement of UV lighting in humans, but it's not quite the same now is it? The first post you linked to, referring to MBD, Jeff posted information from Dr. Ivan Alfonso, also about bearded dragons. Lastly, you quoted an email from John Courteney-Smith from Arcadia. While Mr. Courteney-Smith is a brilliant person, I do question whether or not there is a conflict of interest there, since he does have quite substantial investment in UV lighting that he does need to recoup. I'm sure you can understand my doubt referring to his email.

    All that being said, nobody is saying that UVB is worthless and should just be outright denied, we just don't tell people it is MANDATORY to give ALL AMPHIBIANS UVB lighting. In this day and age, and in the current economies, people are trying to live and enjoy life with their froggy friends on what limited budgets they have. The addition of an extra lighting fixture,bulb replacement once to twice annually (some UVB bulbs can be quite costly), and the added power consumption can drive a potential new frogger away from the hobby before they even begin. And I find that just sad.

    We have a saying here in the U.S. 'there's more than one way to skin a cat'. Gruesome, I know, but it is a saying that I live by, whether it be in the frogging hobby, my fish, my plants, whatever. It just means that there is always more than one way to do things. I preach that constantly. The reason I bring this up is this; you say that with all the scientific and anecdotal evidence showing the benefits of UVB, why don't we as a hobby make it mandatory? Here's your answer: because there is just as much, if not more, that today's high quality supplements (Repashy calcium plus, dedrocare line) work just as well. You mention that Mr. Courteney-Smith has done extensive research on the effects of UVB, do you not believe that the companies producing high quality supplements do not as well? It's not some redneck living in a mobile home somewhere, just tossing powders into cups. Thousands upon thousands of keepers worldwide use oral supplements without any issue whatsoever. I personally, have a hard time understanding why you totally discount that much anecdotal evidence. But, as I said, there's more than one way to skin a cat. You have your way, others have theirs. Neither is 100% wrong, neither is 100% correct.

    The other reason some of us do not push UVB as a requirement is that so often, UVB is misused. I can preach until I turn blue that you should put UVB over a tank, however, unless I actually put it above a tank, there's no guarantee that it will not go over a tank that has plexiglass or lexan covering the top to help with humidity, or high iron content glass. I can preach about burn in times, but so few actually do it. So here is a scenario for you: Mrs. Jones just bought a pair of red eye tree frogs. She went all out. Huge tank, live plants, UVB, and calcium only supplements, as per someone's recommendation. Two months later, Mr. Jones loses his job. Money is tight. Unemployment just isn't cutting it. Luckily, Mrs. Jones has been raising crickets for her frogs, so the staple food is not an issue, but a week ago, the uv bulb burned out on the enclosure. The Jones don't have the money to replace it. Now that the frogs are only getting calcium, they are lacking D3 supplementation. Who suffers? The frogs. I apologize that this got to rambling, I tend to do that sometimes lol. The point is, Mrs. Jones was 'only doing what she was told'. At least that is her comment when she comes on the forum to ask why her frogs were so healthy just a few weeks ago, and now they have no energy. She never even mentions the fact that light burnt out, because she doesn't truly understand why she has it in the first place. She answers yes to 'do you supplement when you feed', because she is, but neglects to mention calcium only. I know, a slightly over dramatic example, but I think you can see my point here. And believe me, this does, and HAS happened. Just another reason why, when asked, I tell someone it's not a mandatory piece of equipment, provided you dust with calcium/d3.


    Basically, my whole point to this post was:

    There's more than one way to skin a cat. I think maybe both sides of the debate should remember that.
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  5. #23
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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    The whole UVB thing with frogs is just another stress to the hobbyist, so much conflicting information takes the fun out of enjoying animals as you're more concerned on the set up rather than the frog itself. Many people come out with broad statements that seem more a personal opinion rather than fact. I don't think there's been enough evidence to actually support that frogs actually need it but there's evidence that they've been kept and raised without for ages and just provided the correct dietary supplementation instead. I encourage more research be done but IMO it's too early to say that all need it, if they did then there would be more sources to say that they did.

  6. #24

    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    I couldn't agree more, in the sense that more research needs to be done. I don't even doubt that for some species, it could be quite beneficial, however, not completely necessary. But I also think that there are some that just absolutely don't need it. I think there needs to be more research into the amount of UV species get in the wild as well. I believe there is current research going on about that in certain areas of Madagascar.
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  7. #25
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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    Thanks guys, good to some input into the thread. It's a difficult subject and the scientific studies are limited. There is never going to be funding to produce a scientific study pertaining to the UVB requirements of every species in the hobby sadly so we have to work with what is available. When a study shows that dietary supplement of D3 is inefficient and that UVB is not it is reasonable to take that as sound for the reasons stated rather than right it off because it isn't the exact animal you're dealing with. The mechanisms within the body are the same.

    I think it's time to simplify things. The purpose of this thread is to discuss a very important part of correctly caring for captive animals and was prompted by seeing people new to the hobby asking about UVB and being given the answer that 'UVB isn't needed for frogs as we supplement with calcium' Apart from being incorrect, this advice disregards one of the most important biological requirements for captive animals that does need to be provided, (Vitamin D3) in order to avoid calcium deficiency.

    So, can we all agree that D3 needs to be provided as without it calcium isn't utilised in the body? Or is the provision of D3 at all in question?

    If we can agree, then we know that there are two ways to provide D3 in captivity. I promote UVB as it is the way that the animal has evolved to 'manufacture' D3 within it's own body in the wild and also offer many other benefits to the captive animal. With UVB the production of D3 is 'self-regulated' by the animal to produce the correct amount. It does need to be used correctly (placement, intensity and adequate cover all need to be addressed) and it does cost (although 20 bucks once a year shouldn't be beyond reach of anyone keeping animals, if it is that person shouldn't be keeping them).

    The alternative method is oral D3 supplementation. I don't like this method because it has been shown to be inefficient, impossible to dose correctly and when overdosed (which is easy enough to do as it can't be dosed correctly) can slowly kill the animal through hypervitaminosis d and does not offer any of the other observed benefits of natural sunlight exposure.

    I think at the very least new keepers asking the question should be told about the two alternative ways of providing D3.

    For those who prefer to supplement instead of using UVB, could you explain how you work out the dosing for each of your species and how you administer that dose?
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  8. #26
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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    I don't have any scientific studies to back me up and am not making any statements about what I think other people should do, but I can recount what I've decided to do and why, so it can possibly help other people in their decision process. I've actually put this info on some other threads, but thought I'd put it here as well. I'm primarily a gecko keeper and that includes mostly nocturnal geckos but also two day geckos. The nocturnal geckos are all maintained on calcium and D3 (Repashy calcium plus). They are fed 3 times a week and their feeders are dusted every other feeding. The day geckos are also maintained on calcium and D3 without UVB as per the practice of Leann and Greg Christenson (based on their book "Day Geckos in Captivity"). The day geckos are 8 and 9 years old and doing well. The only reptiles I have that are being provided with UVB lighting (bulbs changed every 6 months) are my two bearded dragons who are diurnal and fairly large. They get some D3 with dusted feeders twice a week.
    Until recently, I was keeping my trio of RETF on calcium and D3 alone, dusting their crickets every other feeding. I've had them for 6 months and they seem to be doing OK. This past week I added a 13 watt UVB compact florescent to the frog enclosure which I plan to replace every month. I also have a LED light for the plants. I decided to do this for several reasons:
    --the frogs sleep often in the open. My nocturnal geckos mostly sleep inside their hides and wouldn't benefit from UVB during the day
    --the day geckos eat fruit nectar in addition to the crickets. The nectar is formulated with calcium and D3 and is considered a complete meal for them
    --I have no idea how long it takes the frogs to eat the crickets. I've never seen any of my frogs actually eat a cricket, but the frogs appear healthy, there is plenty of frog poop and there aren't too many crickets in there. It may be that the crickets groom the supplement off themselves before the frogs can eat them. That was probably the deciding factor to my adding the UVB light.

    I have no idea how this will all work out; these are my first frogs. So far, things have gone OK. I'm grateful.

    Aliza

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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    That's excellent Aliza. I really hope we can keep this thread positive and open minded , too may times you come across discussions which ought to be like-minded people sharing information descend into arguments. I think egos can get bruised and this causes some people to dig their heels in to the point where they'll never alter their position for fear of appearing to 'lose an argument'.

    Times change in the hobby, we learn more and more equipment becomes available the combination of which enables us to more and more closely replicate the conditions in which our exotic pets live in the wild. Some people have stated that researching and keeping up to date with the latest information is stressful and takes away from the enjoyment. For me it is the opposite, I think creating a mini version of the rainforest or wherever else to help my animals flourish and thrive IS the hobby, watching an animal suffer or become sick or live a less than perfect life because I didn't do absolutely everything in my power to provide the best possible care is what I would find stressful. These creatures live in an enclosure 100% dependent upon us after all.

    To give an personal example of how quickly the hobby moves on, back in 1981 I published an article in 'The Herptile' pertaining to the maintenance of Cordylus giganteus in captivity. While at the time it was not incorrect, if you were to put it forward as a care sheet these days you would be laughed out of the room. The reason? Our knowledge and equipment has moved on vastly. Bear in mind back then the average lifespan of a chameleon (for instance) was considered 3 to 6 months and indeed I owned a Jackson's Chameleon in 1980 which did indeed only survive for 6 months. I'm sure you can guess the reason why! Today many species of chameleon are widely kept and bred in large numbers, back then captive breeding was unheard of.

    So, we need to keep abreast of modern husbandry techniques and we need to share that information. With the internet all of this has become super easy. Recently I was looking for information about Phllomedusa sauvagii, I found a study in the wild online which had the GPS co-ordinates of where the study took place. From these co-ordinates I was able to find out the temperatures, UV index, humidity, rainfall and photoperiod of the area for every month of the year. This information combined with heaters, thermostats, UVB lighting, misters and timers means I recreate the conditions in the place where these animals have evolved to live in the wild. Amazing! You'd have killed for the ability to be able to do this in the late 70s/early 80s.

    I haven't kept geckos for a number of years so I'm not up to date on their husbandry, I do note however from other forum discussions that UVB is mostly considered a necessity these days and a quick Google of modern care sheets seems to back that up. I can certainly understand how these ready-made foods make it much easier to provide correct doseage of nutrients (I'm assuming someone has worked out what dose they need?) so I can see how that might work well as in the thinking in 'Day Geckos in Captivity' from 2003. Of course (and anecdotally!) when I first started keeping we kept our animals with neither UVB OR D3 supplements and they fared well and bred too, but I don't think anyone would recommend that course of action these days. I wonder if you might find it interesting to use UVB with your day geckos at some point?

    Lastly, before this gets too long and boring for people to bother to read , it might be a typo but I see you are planning on changing your UVB every month? Most manufacturers recommend annually, some six monthly. In practice, if you own a UVB meter, you actually find they tend to last a lot longer than either of these recommendations, but monthly is certainly not necessary.
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  10. #28
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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    Let me state I'm not against UVB lighting with frogs, I provide my tree frogs with a 5.0 but my horned frog and cane toad are on natural daylight lamps.

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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    Yes, I should have said "every 6 months". Even changing at that rate is much cheaper than the cost of a UVB meter, which I looked into. Interestingly, I have been in recent touch with Leann who still feels that D3 supplementation for day geckos, as opposed to UVB is the way to go (not that she feels UVB is wrong, but she continues to be successful with her D3 methods). Alan Repashy states that he has done a fair amount of research into formulating his Calcium Plus (though I don't have access to his studies). I will think about the day geckos, though.

    Aliza

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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    Quote Originally Posted by acpart View Post
    Yes, I should have said "every 6 months". Even changing at that rate is much cheaper than the cost of a UVB meter, which I looked into. Interestingly, I have been in recent touch with Leann who still feels that D3 supplementation for day geckos, as opposed to UVB is the way to go (not that she feels UVB is wrong, but she continues to be successful with her D3 methods). Alan Repashy states that he has done a fair amount of research into formulating his Calcium Plus (though I don't have access to his studies). I will think about the day geckos, though.

    Aliza
    'Day' kind of gives it away to me, UVB should be provided. Although d3 supplements can work UVB is better. The only reason I rely on D3 with some frogs is that my Horned frog set up is minimal, there's not much I can do work it compared to what you could do with a geckos, so it would be pinned under the UV, where as a geckos set up could be heavily planted with live plants so there's enough shade so it could self regulate

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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    Thank you for this info specifically about waxies. I am supplying via a UVB bulb about 3 hours per day and my guys do sleep at the top, just under it. I do not have a meter to get readings so I will do that.

    I keep and breed parrots and my husband is an avian vet, so we are able to check things like bone density at will. Many of the same things seem to apply, as these are also arboreal creatures of various habitats (rainforest, Savannah, etc.). Parrots easily overdose on D as do all creatures since it is a fat soluble vitamin and the excess is not excreted like vitamin C for instance.

    So the best results by far are obtained by giving calcium without D and exposing the birds to REAL sunlight at least one hour per week. Tons of studies on this that are not for this forum.

    In an attempt to do the same, I take my frog enclosure outside into the sun (easy as it is a mesh cage) for about an hour once a week. Only once did I have a frog move from the top down to a leaf where he got partial exposure; I see that as an indication that they are indeed "aware" of the sun even when sleeping.

    We have no way of knowing if commercial bulbs provide everything that the natural sun does so I feel this is a prudent strategy.

    (PS although I do not keep them, I would have to assume that even floor dwellers like dart frogs would encounter dappled sunlight and I don't think they should be completely deprived of that-purely an opinion)

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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    You're right about darts, I don't understand how people can say they get d3 in their diet, they do not as they're limited to insects, which don't contain d3. Dart frogs just don't need as much uvb as animals like beardies, they can probably absorb sufficient levels from scattered uv or a step in the sun for a short period of time. But there's so much research to be done, hopefully in a few years time we will have more information and proven results.

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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    Most frog keepers are catching on luckily Monkey Business, and as Jason said there's only one place they get D3 from in the wild and it isn't from diet. The days of over-reliance on supplements ought to be behind us, supplements are there to fill in the gaps of what we are not able to provide in the captive environment, not a beginning point and with the ready availability of UVB bulbs now we don't need to be relying purely on unnatural artificial dietary means.

    I'm sure UVB bulbs aren't as good as natural sunlight, but they are a close second. I see from your location that you are lucky enough to have a ready supply of the real thing!
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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    I still provide low levels of d3 for all frogs receiving uvb just because it isn't the same as natural sunlight. It's an obvious one with dart frogs that they use uvb but when you look at species like horned frogs, african bull frogs, cane toads etc you probably do have to supplement moderate levels of d3 as they feed on vertebrates as well as inverts, so uvb itself might not be enough. There's always going to be a need for supplements as in captivity we rely mainly on crickets as a dietary source and other insects. Perhaps some do actually get all the d3 they need in their diet but smaller frogs like darts, mantellas, fire bellies, red eyed tree frogs for an example most likely use uv for their complete d3 needs.

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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    Yep, I do too. Pretty much all of the multivitamin supplements around contain at least some D3 but I can't imagine the frogs getting enough to cause hypervitaminosis and the other vitamins are nice to have I definitely wouldn't rely on supplements to get adequate amounts of any vitamin let alone D3 though, much better to concentrate on a varied, well gut loaded diet and UVB and use supplements as a safety net. The problem in some circles is that a culture of feeding (usually one) easy to obtain feeder insect and throwing powder at it has developed. To me, that's a bit like giving a human a multivitamin pill and nothing but cheese sandwiches. You wouldn't die, but your health wouldn't exactly be optimum either.
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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    Me neither but we're never really going to be able to provide the varied wild diet of some animals though and so the vitamins compensate for that. Think of horned frogs, a big part of their diet is other frogs (including their own)... To feed them other frogs in captivity isn't feasible considering frogs go for more or less a tenner each. People feed fish and pink mice to compensate for the calcium they'd get from this but pink mice are fatty and fish can be diseased.

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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    Quote Originally Posted by Diver View Post
    Yep, I do too. Pretty much all of the multivitamin supplements around contain at least some D3 but I can't imagine the frogs getting enough to cause hypervitaminosis and the other vitamins are nice to have I definitely wouldn't rely on supplements to get adequate amounts of any vitamin let alone D3 though, much better to concentrate on a varied, well gut loaded diet and UVB and use supplements as a safety net. The problem in some circles is that a culture of feeding (usually one) easy to obtain feeder insect and throwing powder at it has developed. To me, that's a bit like giving a human a multivitamin pill and nothing but cheese sandwiches. You wouldn't die, but your health wouldn't exactly be optimum either.
    Whilst I agree with much of what you say, I would take issue with your comment that "you can't imagine the frogs getting enough [vitamins] to cause hypervitaminosis". Again data is lacking in amphibians (one report is cited in Wright & Whitaker - but how many amphibs routinely undergo post-mortem exam?), but it is not uncommon to see older (usually male) reptiles with blood vessel calcification; hypervitaminosis D is a real possibility. And when you consider supplements are typically "1 pinch per kg of animal" or similar, the difference of a few particles to a dart frog, say, could be a huge overdose. Vitamin supplements are not risk-free by any means. I do use, and recommend, supplementation in many cases (and of course deficiency issues are FAR more common) but care is definitely needed.

    Unfortunately as has been mentioned, ideally we need studies including serial radiographs/bone density assessments, and blood sampling if feasible, to evaluate our captive animals, and crucially compare them to wild specimens (the studies that have been done in herps tend to suggest that even our "clinically healthy" animals are often not comparable in bone density and/or blood vitamin D3 levels to wild animals). While certainly not decrying the efforts and skills of keepers who have reared many species/generations of apparently healthy animals, unless all animals are examined for evidence of pathology, particularly post-mortem, then there will always be doubt.

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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    Quote Originally Posted by Herpvet View Post
    Whilst I agree with much of what you say, I would take issue with your comment that "you can't imagine the frogs getting enough [vitamins] to cause hypervitaminosis". Again data is lacking in amphibians (one report is cited in Wright & Whitaker - but how many amphibs routinely undergo post-mortem exam?), but it is not uncommon to see older (usually male) reptiles with blood vessel calcification; hypervitaminosis D is a real possibility. And when you consider supplements are typically "1 pinch per kg of animal" or similar, the difference of a few particles to a dart frog, say, could be a huge overdose. Vitamin supplements are not risk-free by any means. I do use, and recommend, supplementation in many cases (and of course deficiency issues are FAR more common) but care is definitely needed.

    Unfortunately as has been mentioned, ideally we need studies including serial radiographs/bone density assessments, and blood sampling if feasible, to evaluate our captive animals, and crucially compare them to wild specimens (the studies that have been done in herps tend to suggest that even our "clinically healthy" animals are often not comparable in bone density and/or blood vitamin D3 levels to wild animals). While certainly not decrying the efforts and skills of keepers who have reared many species/generations of apparently healthy animals, unless all animals are examined for evidence of pathology, particularly post-mortem, then there will always be doubt.
    Thanks! Good info and nice to have a contribution from a professional. I was working under the assumption that a multivitamin with low levels of D3 being given in the inefficient 'dusting' method would be tricky to overdose, but of course as it isn't metabolised as such would this be the reason that it would be possible? An accumulative effect? Would it therefore, in your opinion, be better practise to only use supplements not containg D3 when UVB is provided?
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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    I haven't updated this thread for a while, but now UVB provision is accepted as a standard part of good husbandry, here's some solid scientific research to help people figure out exactly how to provide it correctly.
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    Default Re: Uvb and D3

    Thanks for sharing this is very helpful

    but we should also remember not all amphibians are the same and their needs for UVB will differ. Large predatory frogs can get D3 from a diet that includes whole prey items like fish, mice, lizards or other frogs. There's just not enough evidence to support that all frogs need UVB, but they have been raised without for years and many have fared well. With such success, I highly doubt keepers or breeders will or should have to change their ways until more research on each species has been done. Most of the studies I have seen have been doing on small frogs that feed on insects (which naturally lack D3) or basking species.

    Yes, some develop MBD and they might not have had UVB, but was this the cause or inadequate supplementation and gutloading of insects, lack of variety or wrong temperatures?

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