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Thread: New to the site, to frogs and vivariums, so I got some questions!

  1. #1
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    Question New to the site, to frogs and vivariums, so I got some questions!

    Hello,

    I've scoured this site for tons of information regarding dart frogs and their vivarium habitats, because I'll be honest...dart frogs are super cool and I wish I would've looked into them earlier!

    Having been a monster fish keeper for years, I've built several plywood tanks that held a dozen peacock bass at once, and have finally come to the realization that unless the tank is designed by Takashi Amano (RIP) its not going to keep my interest.

    And so I find myself here, inspired by the simplicity and grace of the vivarium's built by members and stunned by the beauty which you've all created.

    Starting out small, I'm converting a 40g into a vertical vivarium for my daughters bday gift. So this gives me a nice launching point to ask questions.

    False Bottoms:

    1. Is there a minimum height? I'm shooting for a 4 - 5" false bottom, and am concerned with the rate at which water will begin to accumulate. I'm sure its dependent on the amount of misting, fog, and humidity...but is there a general rule of thumb saying 1" of water/month?
    2. What is the consistency and texture of the water in a false bottom?
      • Is it a slurry of soil and compost, or does mesh keep the solids out and the liquids are free to gather?

    3. Is the liquid easily drained? Will using an aquarium air hose provide enough area to siphon the liquids, or will a larger diameter hose be required?
      • I ask this, because I hate drilling glass tanks and would like to hide an air hose through the egg crate of the false bottom. Or possibly sliding the air hose down a PVC support pipe to siphon the excess water.


    Silicone:

    1. I just used 3 tubes of ASI aquarium silicone to blackout the back and sides of the glass. Was this overkill?
      • Does the silicone have to be perfectly layered to accept the sprayfoam application?
      • Can additional silicone be applied if the curing process reveals missed spots? I've never used silicone in this fashion, and wanted to avoid using Pond Armor for glass application.


    Titebond:

    1. I've seen several builds that use this method, and was wondering if anyone has catalogued specific organic material which will give different colors during application?
      • I want to avoid adding acrylic based paints because of the need to seal them in with another substance, and IME it ruins any texturing done on the sprayfoam or painting.


    Sprayfoam:

    1. Has anyone here used Pam Cooking Spray on their GS foam to allow for texturing directly after spraying? It can be used to coat sponges, gloves, and other texturing devices to stop the foam from sticking. I've used this method on all of my GS foam stumps and decorations for aquaria, but wasn't sure how it might impact the vivarium setting.


    I know I'll have a half a dozen more questions, but it appears the fumes from the silicone curing agent have caused me to ramble.

    Pics will be posted in a build thread, if I manage to not mess up the tank and have to start all over.

    Thank you for your time and I look forward to any help provided.

    Chris

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  3. #2

    Default Re: New to the site, to frogs and vivariums, so I got some questions!

    Hey Chris,

    i'll see if i can answer you questions for ya.

    False bottom:

    1. no, there is no minimum requirement. but keep in mind, that just like in large construction, the higher you go, the wider your support columns need to be. when i build false bottoms, i try to use the same diameter pipe as the height i am going with. i.e. 2" false bottom=2" pvc, 3" false bottom=3" pvc, ect. i would, however stop at 4" pvc. it gets crowded real fast under there, especially if you want to add any equipment, such as pumps or heaters.

    2. the consistency and texture of the water under the false bottom is liquid water. screening on top of the false bottom keeps substrate from falling through. sure, SOME will fall through, but normally not that much.

    3. 'easily' is a relative term. lol since you mentioned you hate drilling tanks (wuss lol), aquarium air tubing will work just fine. i recommend putting a piece of sponge on the submerged end, and a valve on the siphon exit. the sponge keeps any debris that may fall through (see above) from clogging your hose. i use a piece of pond filter sponge, since i have it lying around, as i am sure you do as well. the valve is so you don't lose the siphon. start the siphon, and when you have the amount drained, just close the valve. next time use need to drain, just open the valve. it will stay that way until the siphon is broken in the usual ways. you can run the air line however your design suits. inside the foam, through a pvc pipe, whatever your mind can dream up. and make sure the exit point for the tubing is SEALED. darts are EXPERT ESCAPE ARTISTS! i lost my favorite pair or R. imitator 'veradero' to a 1/8" gap at the top of a tank in a spot where 'i didn't think they could get to'

    Silicone:

    1. yeah, probably, but it won't hurt. overkill is my trademark. have you seen the monster log in my 125 gallon? LOL
    -No (you get a hyphen because i don't know how to do the dot lol)
    -No. once silicone cures, it adheres to almost everything then we use in vivaria EXCEPT previously cured silicone. go figure, it just won't bond to itself. it may for a little while, but eventually, water works it's way in between the layers and the top one fails. this is why most divided tanks (ones with glass dividers between water/land portions) fail. the glass is siliconed in, but the bottom two corners are being bonded to the silicone tank seams, then you can figure out the rest.

    one thing i will mention about coating the glass with silicone first, then foaming: it is a (insert 5 minute rant of expletives) to get off when you eventually break the tank down!! i am not kidding you. i cannot tell you how bad it sucks!! i had to do it on my 125 and it took me weeks.the madagascar tank took about a week. i ended up using a chisel (gasp!) and hammer (GASP!) to get the background clean. just throw the tank away when you are done with it. seriously, i'm not kidding. lol

    Titebond:

    1. i have played with different materials and titebond. adding some peat moss to the mix will darken it. you can also add materials while the coats are drying, much like pressing coco fiber into silicone. on my Madagascar tank, i laid a peat/coco fiber, sand and something else i have since forgotten onto the last coat of titebond, which is what gave it the different texture it had. some people also tint the titebond with acrylic paint. that can also help darken it. and no need for sealing, since the paint is mixed into the glue

    you can also use an acrylic type paint, like Drylok, to cover the foam. it fills the holes of carved foam pretty well, and you don't need to seal it afterwards. once it dries, it's ready to go and it doesn't leech anything toxic.

    Sprayfoam:

    1. eek! no. i've never even considered it. i'm not 100% sure i would recommend it either. i guess it 'could' be used , provided you were able to get 100% of it out of the tank and foam. at least with aquariums, if you're like me, you do about 50 water changes before you even consider adding live stock. that's plenty of time for anything nasty to work it's way out that may have been missed. but with vivariums, if there's anything that would harm the frogs, it's in the tank, it's got nowhere to go. and since frogs absorb everything through their skin, it could be ugly. but then again, it may be 100% safe. i have no idea. that was just me typing a few extra words of bull lol

    ahhhhh, another reason i got off the silicone bandwagon. i have no brain cells to spare anymore......lol
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    Default Re: New to the site, to frogs and vivariums, so I got some questions!

    Hey Bill,

    Thanks for digging through my rambling.

    False Bottoms:

    1. Thanks for the advice on the diameter = height. The 40g tank has limited space so I may try to double up the supports, but reduce the diameter. My big worry with this is the weight and pressure directed on the smaller diameter piping. Too heavy, and the possibility of cracks rises. Will have to weigh my choices.
    2. Glad to hear that the consistency of the water is mainly liquid. I would imagine siphoning out a smoothie would be rather problematic.
    3. I hate drilling tanks because they still hold a special place in my heart...and I've got breeding pairs of SA dwarf crenicichla that get super nasty when they spawn. Extra tanks are gold when mean fish get meaner!


    Silicone:

    1. I have seen your 125g, and its $%&!ing beautiful! Would like to do something similar with my 125g when I switch the fish into the new 180g.
      • Glad to hear the silicone doesn't have to be perfect.
      • Not so glad to hear that the silicone wont adhere to silicone...cause that means I'll need to scrape clean at least half of one side of this tank.


    Titebond:

    1. That's awesome that acrylic paints can be added to tint the glue. I thought I read somewhere that it needed to be sealed, but if the glue acts as the sealer, then it should work just fine. I can break out my paints again and start researching material that can improve texture! Wondering if Spanish Moss would look good as a textured pattern on a background.
    2. Drylok and grout are some of my favorite materials to work with when designing rocky backgrounds, however because of the inability to soak these backgrounds I'm worried that the grout might release toxics which will harm the frogs.
    3. Any experience using grout for background texture?


    Sprayfoam:


    1. I'll take that as a no, and stick to carving and sanding my backgrounds. Normally décor is covered with epoxy, and soaked for a week with several WC's before its ever added to a tank...so the nonstick spray residue is long gone.


    Thanks again for your help. I know I'll have ten times the questions once I get the silicone issue straightened out.

    Will try to start a build thread, but I suck at keeping them updated.

    Cheers,
    Chris

  5. #4

    Default Re: New to the site, to frogs and vivariums, so I got some questions!

    I have done grout backgrounds. I only use non sanded and do them very light layer by very light layer. The downside to them can be cracking due to the foam expanding and contracting from temp changes.

    I know the feeling about drilling. All my exoterra tanks are drilled, but the converted aquariums I use aren't. I just can't muster up the gumption to drill a perfectly good aquarium lol


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    Default Re: New to the site, to frogs and vivariums, so I got some questions!

    Have you ever added the non-sanded grout to Titebond?

    A future build of mine will use rigid foam and spray foam, but the rigid foam will be rock textured and I'm not sure the safest way to produce this effect.

    Seeing the builds from this site, I'm thinking grout/titebond/acrylic paint....but not sure if there's a better way to make sure the inhabitants are safe.

  7. #6

    Default Re: New to the site, to frogs and vivariums, so I got some questions!

    I've never thought about using it that way. I'm not really sure what benefit it would offer, if any. There are numerous ways to make styrofoam look rock like. A lot depends on the kind of rock you are trying to mimic. Grout, Drylok, Restore (deck resurfacing paint), concrete, ect. It all depends on how artistic and creative you can be.


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    Default Re: New to the site, to frogs and vivariums, so I got some questions!

    Ok, so just put down the first application of foam.

    Looks good thus far, but think I've run into a snag...Is cured foam strong enough to support a branch sticking out of the back wall?

    I've built backgrounds and tree stumps out of foam before, but never had anything sticking out of them like this before.

    Is there a relative size of branch that wont be supported by GS foam? This goes against any engineering knowledge I have, so its all new to me.

    Thanks,
    Chris

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    Default Re: New to the site, to frogs and vivariums, so I got some questions!

    NM, got my answer.

    Pretty surprising how strong that foam is compared to its weight.

    Now the bad thing is...I'm not sure I like that branch there.

    Guess my planning didn't take into account my indecision.

  10. #9

    Default Re: New to the site, to frogs and vivariums, so I got some questions!

    Don't you love how sometimes you get answers to your own questions before someone can respond?


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  11. #10

    Default Re: New to the site, to frogs and vivariums, so I got some questions!

    Quote Originally Posted by DerpyDartFrog View Post

    Guess my planning didn't take into account my indecision.
    This is exactly why I rarely ever foam hardscape in anymore. I hate being forced to deal with something 'forever'. I am constantly changing things, so I try to avoid making anything permanent.


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    Default Re: New to the site, to frogs and vivariums, so I got some questions!

    Yeah I ended up cutting out the branch, and will re-foam it to look like a ledge with a netpot that should hold a hanging plant.

    Now I just hope I don't re-change my mind.

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    Default Re: New to the site, to frogs and vivariums, so I got some questions!

    So after searching through threads for a while tonight looking for help I had to come back to this thread in hopes of finding answers from the Frog Forum community.

    I've noticed that an edge of my foam background has started to pull away from the silicone.

    Does this spell disaster for my current background?
    Does the foam need to be pulled off and re-applied?
    Can it be fixed, without complete reconstruction?

    Also, I was trying to find any reference to the consistency of Titebond that is used in painting the background. The only reference I was able to find was one about "like runny, nasty oatmeal".

    The mixture I used wasn't runny, but felt more like a watered down mortar.

    I've read that thin coats are required because of shrinkage. If this is the case, will it cause the above mentioned problem of the background pulling away to get worse?

    Is there a hard and fast recipe for Titebond, or is it like grandma's secret that nobody really knows and only guess' the quantities required?

    Thanks for any help, and I apologize for the hand holding. This is definitely not like any DIY build I've done before.

    Horrible cell phone pic of current state of vivarium is below.


  14. #13

    Default Re: New to the site, to frogs and vivariums, so I got some questions!

    You're dealing with shrinkage. I once thought it was a temperature issue, or an issue of moving the tank around before the foam cured, but I am starting to think it is due to heavy application. You can just cover the section that pulled away. It normally only shrinks the one time, so if you cover that section, you shouldn't have any issues with it.

    There's no clear cut recipe on titebond. It's a kind of 'feel as you go' method. I have done a runny slurry, and I have done the thick slurry as well. I have even done a thick paste like version that was able to coat in one coat.

    The drying of the titebond shouldn't accentuate the foam that shrank. It should just cover it.

    Hope that helps.


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    Default Re: New to the site, to frogs and vivariums, so I got some questions!

    Thanks for the reply, Bill.

    Glad I wont have to yank out the background.

    Is there anyway to adhere the foam back to the silicone? I'd hate to have an inhabitant get stuck.

    My titebond recipe wasn't thick enough to cover it all in one coat, and I'll need to apply another coat later this week. Hard to be patient as the first coat dries.

    The first coat was several mixtures of 8oz titebond, and two handfuls of sphagnum peat moss....guessing I'll need to double the titebond, increase the acrylic paint and lower the peat moss.

    Love the titebond process, cause the silicone and coco fiber would've been too much for my old brain to handle!

  16. #15

    Default Re: New to the site, to frogs and vivariums, so I got some questions!

    There's no way to reattach it. But since you are doing the whole titebond thing, just do a couple heavy coats in there to fill it up.

    Patience is the key to titebond. I normally do a section and forget about it for a week. Bad things happen when you start rushing things along.

    And I agree, silicone/coco fiber is brutal on the brain cells. I don't have enough to spare as it is lol


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    Default Re: New to the site, to frogs and vivariums, so I got some questions!



    Am I mixing it wrong?

    From a lot of the videos and pictures I've seen, there should be a lot more texture to the background. A very organic texture, not the semi-plastic which I'm seeing on my background.

    Also, acrylic paints dry extra dark when mixed with TB3. The above photo was give two squirts of Sable Brown acrylic paint.

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