At a loss / 2 RETF's died overnight

[MiningFrog]

1----what 'kind' of frog is it- RETF's
4----size of enclosure-12x12x24 Exo-Terra (Temp housing till new one arrives)
5----# on inhabitants - 2 of the same size
6----has or was the frog kept with a different species or with any other tank mate: Only from Pet Store (Was with Green Tree Frogs)
7----is there a new tank mate- New Setup
8----what is the typical humidity level- 70%-90%
9----what temperature is maintained- 75*-80*
10---what is, specifically, being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure- Under tank heat mat as well as 25w Inferred
11---describe the enclosure lighting- UVB Full spectrum rain-forest light
12---describe enclosure maintenance- Wipe down walls and clean waste from bottom every 3 days (Clean waterfall and replace water the same) Complete clean every 2 weeks
13---what kind of water is used- Distilled with reptisafe for all water and cleaning
14---material(s) used for substrate - False bottom with Plantation Soil
15---enclosure set up:
-----if recent - Completely new setup: ZooMeds whip out followed by wet paper towel
-----plants( live or artificial)- Golden Pothos, Bromeliad, Rhizophora, 2 Fake vines 1 plastic 1 fabric (Both face cleaned in same treated hot water)
-----describe wood, bark , and background materials- Just ZooMed waterfall, cleaned
16---when is the last time the frog ate- 3 days ago
17---have you found poop lately- Yes
18---how often is the frog fed- A few gut loaded crickets every other day or when they look hungry
19---what size feeder is given- 3/8" (Dusted)
20---what other feeders are used as treats- None
21---what is the frog's main food source- Crickets
22---do feeders roam free in the enclosure or is the frog bowl fed- Started bowl fed / Last time was in habitat
23---vitamins - what brand and how often- N/A
24---calcium - what brand and how often- Cant remember but dusted every other feeding
25---was the frog without calcium for any period of time- No
26---approximate age of the frog- Unknown
27---how long have you owned the frog- 2 weeks
28---who cared for the frog before you- Pet Store
29---is the frog wild caught or captive bred- Unknown
30---how often the frog is handled -- are gloves used- Only at feeding and cleaning, Latex powder free and wet
31---is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area- Low traffic
30---has or was the frog properly quarantined- Critter carrier
-----for how long- 1week

Love frogs and my wife found me 2 RETF's at our local pet store. She picked them up the following day after we made sure the habitat was going to maintain temp and humidity. Last night both frogs were just doing there normal from what I thought. 1 was on the back wall sleeping and the other was sitting on the waterfall just looking out. When I got op in the morning (3am) for work they were both almost dead. Running late for work I had my wife quarantine both of them separately in cleaned containers with their treated water in the bottom for them to soak. Long story short, Wife called me at work saying that they have both pasted away . The way she explained it was that they looked as if they died of a heart attack. Legs straight back and one of the front legs over the chest. Am I doing something wrong??? I have 2 Whites Tree Frogs / 1 Pacman / 2 Fire Belly / 3 Toads / 2 Copes Tree Frogs and they are all thriving in their vivariums. The Whites, Pacman, Fire Bellies are in the living room (High Traffic) The Copes and Toads in daughters room (Frogs she has caught) and the RETF's were in the bedroom (Low Traffic). All Frogs we have had for over a year. Having problems uploading pictures

[Diver]

Which store did they come from? Can you find out from them if they were wild caught or captive bred? Were they small or adult size?

[MiningFrog]

They were bought from Petco in WV. Talking with our normal rep (Has many exotics and trustworthy friend) there he stated that they come from LLLReptile & Supply. Reading through there site I'm finding that they are (CB) and I'm going to say adult due to the size.

Trying to post picture but saying wrong format.......Ugh

Maybe this will work.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...type=3&theater

Link to my FB picture of what was Ren an Stimpy

[Diver]

Looks to me like the adults at LLLReptile are NOT listed as captive bred while the babies are. Can't see your photo from the link, but if you say they were large it's safe to assume that were adult.
I don't know LLL (I'm not even in the same country!), but if they were wild caught chances are they either came to you with a disease or died because of the stress involved. Unfortunately a post mortem is the only way to be sure.
Speaking for the UK, it's absolutely appalling how many wild caught RETFs end up in shops here. This is a species which is very commonly bred in captivity and by people who pay attention to bloodlines in order to prevent inbreeding. There's absolutely no need to be ripping frogs out of their natural habitat (usually during the breeding season), shove them in boxes and ship them abroad. The loss of life is huge in transit and many of the ones that do make it to their destination die soon afterwards. They carry diseases and parasites which go on to infect captive populations already here. (Search for Chytrid and Ranavirus for a start).
Sadly most buyers are unaware of the implications. We really need to raise awareness and boycott the purchase of ALL wild caught RETFs and sellers who choose to stock them over captive bred to make a few bucks more should be named and shamed.

Sorry for your loss, but this is a story I keep hearing over and over sadly.

[LilyPad]

I'm so sorry for your loss

Generally speaking...frogs that come from pet stores are unhealthy. They are not typically properly housed, and then they are also exposed to pathogens. LLLreptile carries both WC and CB, so there is no saying which of those it was. You also have to make sure there there is no equipment shared between your other species, considering you have wild caught frogs in your household. Even sharing the misting bottle can share pathogens.

You can post a photo using a photo uploading site like photobucket.

Is your heater on a thermostat so you can make sure there are no temperature spikes? It seems like it would have to be something like that to cause them to both die at the exact same time.

Also, distilled water is not appropriate for the soaking bowls of ANY of your animals. Treated (I use seachem prime) tap water or treated bottled spring water (if there is a really good reason not to use the tap water) is far better. Distilled water will leach the important minerals from your animals' bodies over time. It is great for misting, as it doesn't leave water stains, but that is where the benefits of distilled water ends (also, you do not need to treat distilled water, there is nothing in it.)

Why are you handling them at feeding time? Red eyes should not really EVER be handled except for medical reasons or moving homes. Even in quarantine...I cleaned AROUND them while they were sleeping.

I cannot really see any errors that would have caused sudden death though.

[Heatheranne]

Hello and welcome, MiningFrog.

I'm sorry for the loss of your new retf.

It's tough to say what happened for sure without a necropsy. Did they spear to look sick in any way? I'm unable to view the link.

[DaisyMaisy]

Sorry for your loss of the frogs, I am sad for you. Sounds like you were giving them good care. If they were at pet store mixed in with green tree frogs they could have caught something there too. Unfortunately not all pet stores are scrupulous about hygiene.


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[MiningFrog]

After taking them back to the store we were informed that the other ones which were their and purchased by another person had passed away in the same manner. (Amy) As for handling them while feeding was due to ensuring they were eating at first and not fighting for food. I do this with all my frogs when they first come home for a week or so to ensure they are eating well and I'm able to keep track of input to output of my little friends. Will look into Photobucket today and post a pic. As for temp in the habitat I have both digital and analog readings, we keep a close eye on them to maintain proper temps. Have been looking into getting something to regulate it for me but my wife does a good job now due to being a stay at home mom. She loves them to no end and encourages me to make their habitats as natural as possible.

[MiningFrog]

Well a little update. Cleaned my vivarium up and now have a little Green Tree Frog living in it with no problems. Next time I will order my RETF's from Josh's Frogs. Thinking of making a vivarium from scratch so it will fit in better in the livingroom. Thank you all for your help and advice.