Sick Pacman Frog, what should I do?

[KerkeringJ]

Alright so I've posted about my sick frog before and here's where we're at (this has been going on for more or less a month now):

Originally he had a slight prolapse (now normal) and two sores on his underside (which are still there, although less inflamed), along with some bloatedness (now gone). This was determined to be because of an infection by my vet, so he was put on nolvasan for a little while. Throughout this whole thing my frog was molting like crazy, which he still is. He's had a tiny cyst since which went away.

Now I've noticed that he's continuing molting on his legs to the point where he barely has any skin left. I'm not sure if this is because I've been overdoing the nolvasan or if because he has something the nolvasan doesn't treat (like chrytid). Unfortunately if I treat him for chrytid it would continue to irritate the skin on his legs, and I'm worried he could start bleeding out.

I called the only nearby herp-vet, and he recommended halting all treatment and putting him on semi-wet peat moss, and you keep his underside relatively dry until it heals. He did acknowledge that he sees more reptiles and birds however, and isn't an expert on amphibians.

So what do you think I should do Pacman-Frog experts? Should I start a chrytid home-remedy? Should I just wait it out with him on the peat moss? Is there anything I should be worried about? His appetite is pretty constant, and he's behaving normally. Any help would be appreciated, and if any further info is needed just let me know!

[DVirginiana]

Is the vet who told you to stop the treatment the same one who prescribed it or a different vet? That's not entirely clear from your post, and it's VERY strange for one vet to recommend stopping treatment prescribed by another vet without seeing the animal or knowing its medical history. Like borderline unethical type strange.

Also, I'm not really 100% sure what you mean when you say he has almost no skin left on his legs. Are there open sores on them, or what? Can't really give you any advice on that without a picture.

If you put him on the moss, make sure you put him in a different container to feed him. You don't need him swallowing moss and getting impacted to complicate things. The moss recommendation strikes me as a bit odd... Usually a hospital setup for frogs is moist paper towels changed daily to keep debris from substrate getting into wounds. I don't want to contradict your vet, but it seems to me that moss could get into and irritate and open sores.

Also, why do you suspect chytrid? Molting excessively can be a sign of it, but it can also just be a sign of general bad health. It sounds like the frog is already in a bad situation medically, and I think it would probably be a really bad idea to start a long and stressful treatment for something he may not even have based on not a lot of evidence and without a vet's recommendation. If you have other reasons to suspect chytrid or your vet wants you to treat for it, let us know, but otherwise I think that would be a bad idea.

Regardless, please post a picture of the frog and the current setup you have him in so we can get a better idea of the situation. It sounds very complicated, and a picture is worth a thousand words.

[KerkeringJ]

WOkay, I've got some pictures. One isof the legs and one is of the one on his back. The thing on the legs is that they're so peely that you can basically see all the capillaries, they're semi-translucent. He has sores on his belly as well, covered by his hand in the picture.

I suspected chyrtid because the shedding has been consistent throughout antibiotic and nolvasan treatments, so a fungus not eliminated by nolvasan would make sense. The doctor recommended stopping the treatment and putting him on moss to rest the tissue, but since his sores look a little more inflamed after being in it I may switch back to wet paper towels, which he's been on since the prolapse. Any help would be appreciated!

[DVirginiana]

The first picture isn't showing up, try reloading it.

As for the bottoms of his legs, it may just be a result of the camera flash, but they don't look like they have anything wrong with them to me. Is there redness, open sores, or swelling that just isn't showing up in the photo?
Having not seen the frog in person (and not being a vet) I don't want you to go against doctor's orders here, but it may be worth asking if they'll let you email them a picture of the frog's legs and see if they still want you to stop the antibiotic. From the first post I got the impression that the legs were basically skinless, so the vet may have gotten the same impression if you described it the same way. I think that's important, because antibiotics often don't show signs of improvement until near the end of the treatment, so it may be responding to them just very slowly (I'm not seeing any belly sores to speak of at the moment, so that's good at least).

If there are no open sores, I see nothing wrong with keeping him on moss for the time being as long as you move him before feeding. If wet paper towels works better for you though, just ask the vet if that would be acceptable. I imagine they'll say yes.

As for the increased shedding, it's not surprising that it would start around the time he got sick and started treatment. It could easily just be due to the stress of the whole situation. Unless something else happens that makes you absolutely sure it's chytrid I'd stay away from treating for it right now. That's a long, drawn out process that's stressful for you and the frog, and for a problem that isn't super common in captive bred animals.

[KerkeringJ]

Thanks for the quick response! I'll try to fix the first picture, there are two more on his underside that have been there for a while now. I suppose nolvasan soaks might have been keeping them from healing properly though.

For what it's worth, he's also had some watery bloating at first that's now disappeared after the nolvasan soaks, and the sore on his back came about because of a burst cyst. Anything I should be looking out for?

It's really hard to see with the flash, but I do feel like the layer of skin on like the inside of his legs is absurdly thin.

[DVirginiana]

Okay, the pic is working now.

The sore on his back doesn't look bad at all. Probably would be fine if you did nothing. Putting a bit of PAINKILLER FREE Neosporin on it won't hurt anything though. The painkiller-free bit is important; painkillers can seriously harm the frog.

The skin on the legs does look thin, but it's not abnormal. It should have an almost translucent look and maybe a slight tinge of pink (you'll notice the inside of the front legs look the same way). You've got a problem if the underside starts to look red or inflamed, but this seems okay to me. I think it's definitely worth a call to double check if the vet still wants you to quit the antibiotic treatment.

If he starts to bloat up again, you can do a honey soak. 5-6 drops of honey in a tub of luke-warm water up to the frog's chin for about 15 minutes.

[KerkeringJ]

Thanks for the response! He's been doing well, although he does look a little thin. And I think I might know the reason why! The last time he pooped, the whole thing was mostly a gray color, which is apparently indicative of liver/bile release malfunction. If his gallbladder isn't working properly, that would explain his thinness despite the fact that I've been feeding him. So uhh... any tips? Not sure if this is something I'll be able to fix unfortunately, but is this indicative of any bacterial/fungal/viral infection that you guys know of? Please let me know!

[DVirginiana]

Hm... I generally associate bacterial infections with runny poo, but you can't rule that out completely. Being on antibiotics can also mess with the digestive system, so that could be what you're seeing. Abnormal poo can also be a sign of parasites; do you know if he's ever been fed anything like feeder fish? Those are really bad to transmit parasites.

Can you post another picture from above so we can see just how thin he is? Also if the oddly colored poo happens again, snap a picture and put it up.

If the oddly colored poo continues to happen, it might be a good idea to get a fecal done (save the poo in a moist paper towel inside a ziploc bag and store it in the refrigerator for no more than two days if you can't get it to the vet immediately) just to make sure there's no parasite issue. Fecals are usually pretty inexpensive. My gut is saying that it's probably due to the antibiotic, but it's hard to say for sure especially without seeing the poo.

If he doesn't have trouble with impaction, you can feed him a pinkie mouse (no more than once a month) to try and put some weight back on him. They have a pretty high fat and protein content compared to worms and crickets. However, don't do this unless he's medically stable; acting pretty much normally and alert. The mice put a little more stress on the digestive system than invertebrates, so I wouldn't feed one to a frog that's seriously ill.

[KerkeringJ]

I really can't get a good picture. His skin is really tight (you can see the edges of his skull), you can see bumps on his back which kinda look like bone, and other areas have faint red dogs like you see when you get a really bad skin burn. His sores (ulcers?) on his belly haven't been healing either.

This is all chrytid, yeah? Slow onset, redding of belly, shedding of skin, formation of growths, watery abcesses, and lots of thinness. I think I'm gonna put him back on the chrytid mess. Obviously doing nothing isn't working, and the antibiotics didn't work before even though I basically completed them.

For what it's worth, his poo was runny a few weeks ago before it turned gray. Not liquidy, but not like super solid.

[DVirginiana]

What you decide to do is up to you, but I very highly doubt that your frog has chytrid. It can only survive and affect frogs in cool temperatures; the maximum survivable temps for chytrid are around 73 F. If you're keeping your pac temps in the appropriate range, there should be no way the chytrid fungus could survive in his enclosure for any extended period of time. It's also uncommon in species that are captive born and bred like the overwhelming majority of pacs are.

Reddening of the belly (which is not what you're seeing unless the frog's belly has changed drastically since the pictures you took; you look to be dealing with two sores that have only localized reddening around them, which is expected) is more commonly due to bacteria than chytrid. As for formation of watery growths and abcesses, where are those on your frog? Other than the two sores on the belly, you haven't mentioned any of those. The sore on his back doesn't look like it's related to any sort of infection; it's actually a very common spot for shed to get stuck and then pull a bit and cause a little sore. I've seen it several times on mine during the years. Excessive shedding can be caused by bacterial infections, stress, and certain medications. As far as weight loss goes, it's hard to gauge without a picture, but your frog has been eating. In a frog that's still eating, that points to a potential parasitic problem or could be a complication of the antibiotic. Weight loss in chytrid is largely due to the frogs not eating. The runny poo is most commonly associated with bacterial infections (can also be a parasitic problem), but in your case I think it may be related to the antibiotics.
Finally, the most important symptom of chytrid is neurological issues. This can manifest in the frog having difficulty moving, flipping over (that's not a natural defense mechanism in pacs like it is in some tree frogs), and curling toes (like, the toes will curl constantly and the frog can't straighten them out). Another big marker is excessive soaking, so unless your frog is basically living in his water dish he's not showing that. The stretched/dry skin in chytrid will still occur even when the frog soaks, as the skin actually can't take in water properly. If the majority of the frog looks normal, that shouldn't be what you're seeing. For pacs, the shoulders and head will often look a bit dry since that's the part they will keep out of the substrate most often, giving it more of a chance to dry out.

Basically, everything you're seeing points to bacterial infection and the general effects of illness and treatment, and he's not showing the hallmark soaking and neuro issues associated with chytrid. Chytrid has a big scare factor, and the symptoms mimic more common and likely problems, so many people assume chytrid when it's not the case. The treatment for chytrid is very stressful on the animal, and very long and drawn out. Something that could cause serious issues for an already sick frog.

Plus, in that belly shot, the sores don't seem to be a major problem, and their presence doesn't necessarily mean the antibiotics weren't working. I'd expect the actual wounds to take a bit longer to heal considering their location. Also, I don't know how often you've had to give animals antibiotics, but finishing the course is absolutely necessary, and you often won't see results till the very end; sometimes you even need a second course. Such is the nature of antibiotics unfortunately. What's more, sometimes the initial antibiotic won't correctly target the problem and they need to try another. If the vet didn't do a culture, that may very well be the problem.

I'll post a link to a page about chytrid; it's aimed at Australians, but includes some good info and a picture of an animal that actually has chytrid (looks nothing like what you're seeing). https://www.frogsafe.org.au/disease/..._chytrid.shtml
This is just advice, and you know your frog's condition better than i dobut my personal opinion is that you should trust your vet's diagnosis of a bacterial problem. You seem really dedicated to making sure your frog gets better, and I'd hate to see you accidentally make things worse by treating for a problem that isn't there and not treating the real issue.

Sorry for the super long post btw, but I wanted to cover everything.

[DVirginiana]

Also, if you're really concerned it may be chytrid, try posting in other areas of the forum where you're more likely to run into someone who's actually seen/treated it and link back to this thread. The tree frog forum is pretty active, and contains a lot of species that are commonly wild caught or come from areas where chytrid is a real issue. I'm no expert on chytrid and I think hearing from someone who has personal experience with it would be good for you.

[KerkeringJ]

Woah, this is all hugely helpful, thank you! So like if it gets above 79 at all for most of the time it can't be that?

He has a little water pouch on one side of his body that sort of emerges and disappears. It went away with nolvasan, but now it's back.

He also has a new sore now, on his back. It was caused just from the skin there disappearing.

[DVirginiana]

I'm not an expert on chytrid and have never seen/treated it personally, but from everything I've read it shouldn't be able to thrive above about 73. Since pacs shouldn't ever get below 75 it shouldn't be able to live in a pac enclosure. Given the temps and the fact that almost all pacs are captive born and bred, I just think bacterial infection is far more likely than chytrid.

So, with the water pouch are you talking about just like an area under the skin that looks like it's holding water, or something that's very wrong looking? If it comes and goes maybe just leave your camera beside the enclosure so you can snap a pic next time you see it. Pics are really helpful for evaluating stuff like this. Pacs can retain a lot of water at times just as a normal part of living. Without a pic I feel like that may be what you're seeing.

If the new sore on his back looks like the one in the picture you posted before, it'd be fine to put painkiller free neosporin on it.