froggie update

[lraulston]

Hey guys, last week I got my first WTFs (well first since I was a kid). One of them was very lethargic, and after a day started sitting in his water bowl all day. He had shed in the bowl, and has not eaten anything or showed interest in crickets. I decided to put him in a 10 gal to watch him better with a plant and wet paper towels in the bottom. Yesterday when I moved him he was perched on the water bowl instead of in it, and I went ahead and moved him to the 10 gallon with the water bowl. I offered him a dusted cricket with tongs yesterday but he showed no interest and just pushed it away with his foot. I did not push it further. He sat in one spot all day yesterday, but today he woke up and looked more alert than he has in two or three days. He even jumped up on the glass and climbed all around the tank today and up on the plant. I put a cricket in for him, but he showed little interst, though when he was up on the fake plant he did watch the cricket some. He is back to a very light green color. Is this a good sign? He is back asleep now, but I am encouraged to see him active.

[John]

Leave the cricket in with him overnight and see if it's there tomorrow. Actually, leave two in there. It does sound positive though.

[lraulston]

Last night I changed out the paper towels in the bottom of the tank and noticed something under the frog. I left him alone on that piece of paper towel and this morning when he was off of it took some pics. Is it poop? If so, it is obviously not supposed to be loose. What does this mean, or is it not poop at all? Oh, and the two crickets that I left in there for him last night were still here this morning. he still has not eaten. Perhaps the crickets are too large? should I get smaller crickets or mealworms or something? He seems fine now, but a few min ago he jumped in the water dish but had his face down and acted like he could not get out (I put the water level low) so I picked him up and set him out of his bowl and he flipped over, then flipped back upright and staggered for a min and then he was fine. He looks okay, but I know something is not right. I can't take this much more.

[John]

Yes, that's poo. If he was sitting on it it's likely he crushed it, so judging whether or not it was loose is difficult. I still say hang in there - take the two crickets out and leave him for a day or two and then give him another 1-2. I know you've had bad luck with animals lately but I don't think you should panic yet.

Kurt have anything to say?

[lraulston]

No, I have not pm'd Kurt though, but I think I may run the frog to a vet today. I found the one in Plano. May ease my nerves to have him look it over. Of course I don't want to stress him by moving him either. Would it hurt to take him?

[daydreaming]

i hope everything went ok at the vets i have my fingers crossed for you

[Kurt]

It could not hurt to take him to the vet. I take all new animals to the vet for a check up. Runny stool can indicate a possible parasite problem. I think it would be a good idea to take both frogs to the vet. Have him do a fecal test and treat with metronidazole and few days later fenbendazole. Treat both frogs to be on the safe side.
Petco has a tendency not to clean cages in between new inhabitants and house things together that should never be kept together. So, even if they are captive bred there is a possibility it may have picked something up there.

[lraulston]

Well I did not read this until I got back from the vet. I just took the sick frog. DId not see the vet I went to see-but obviously this one saw amphibians too. She said that his belly and legs looked irritated and it could be red leg or another infection. She gave me Gentamicin to soak him in for 1 hour a day for days. I read something online about frogs having a bad reaction to Gentamicin. Anyone ever used it?

[John]

Gentamicin can have a detrimental effect on the kidneys (more of an issue if it's injected). The main issue I think is what concentration she told you to use? I've asked Rayson over at Caudata.org to come and have a look here and give you more info so hopefully he will log in soon. He's a vet specializing in amphibians (and he's in Australia so I think he'll be very knowledgeable about this).

[lraulston]

Well guys-here is the long and sad story. Very hard to tell for me right now also.

Got back from the vet-frog was doing well. Climbing on the glass etc. I decided to give him his first dose of perscribed med (Gentomycin). The medicine came in a tube/ small vial filled at the vet office( not a bottle you would buy). The med had a label on it with a concentration of 10mg/ml. The directions stated to add 0.1 ml to 1 liter (4 cups) of water and to soak for one hour each day for 7 days. I added 0.1 ml from a 1 ml syringe to 4 cups of water in a measuring cup. I stirred the meds in so it would be even throughout. I put enough water in a tupperwear bowl to just cover the frog's back legs and come to his belly. I picked him up with a wet hand and he was fine. I set him in the water and immediatley he put his nose down in the water, kicked once and got stiff. He rolled onto his side and blew air bubbles out of his nose. I picked him up quickly and took him out of the water and layed him back in his tank. He stayed stiff- breathed one or two more times...and died. He had blood coming from his nose and anus. This all literally happened in a matter of seconds. The water was spring water that was normally used for his water bowl. He was not in the water more than 5 seconds at the most. Needless to say I am traumatized and very sad. All I wanted to do was help him. There were a few tinges of brownish-red blood in one corner of the tank from before I put him in the water and on the paper towel I took him to the vet in- but he was acting fine. The second he touched the water he freaked out like this. Similar to what he did in his water bowl this morning when he freaked out like he was drowning- but this was worse and killed him. Ideas?

[Kurt]

Maybe toxic shock from the meds? Other than that, not a clue. Did the vet know about the blood on the paper towels? I sent this thread to my vet for his opinion on it. Hopefully I will hear from him soon.

So sorry for your loss.

[John]

Here's what Rayson said:

Hi John,

Frogs have a higher sensitivity to gentamicin and thus is not a first drug of choice. Besides being nephrotoxic, frogs are particularly susceptible to gentamicin ototoxicity. Vestibular damage can occur swiftly whereby destruction of crista ampullary hair cells of frogs occur.

Gentamicin diffuses rapidly into the inner ear but elimination from the inner ear is much slower leading to an accumulation of a toxic metabolite. The frog will develop vision, hearing and motor coordination problems, leading to actions like bubbling, rigid limb stretching and recumbency. Neurological damage ensue in toxicity whereby loss of muscle control can lead to diarrhoea etc. They can also bleed out from orifices.

Therefore in a lot of pharmacokinetic studies on gentamicin, frogs are the test subjects of choice. Thus frogs need much lower gentamicin dosage compared to any other species if it is absolutely warranted as they accumulate even small dosages of gentamicin to toxic levels.

There are other safer antibiotics that cover a wider spectrum rather than gentamicin as it targets only gram negative bacteria. It is better to culture a suspected pathogen and get the verification before proceeding to use gentamicin.


In general, support for kidney perfusion is warranted when an ill animal requires a nephrotoxic drug. This is particularly so for amphibians as they have a higher fluid composition than other species. I would support the kidney function by use of amphibian ringers to provide hydration (and thus improved blood circulation).

If the frog was merely presented with loose faeces, i would proceed with performing a faecal floatation to check for parasites. Metronidazole and fenbendazole can then be safely administered. I don't see any indication for antibiotics.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.

He also sent me this:

Hi John,

Just a link for you.

http://www.jcu.edu.au/school/phtm/PH...otter-2006.pdf

Cheers.

I've asked him to comment directly on the death itself.

[John]

From what Rayson has said I think it likely that the dosage was just too high (although that surprises me - I thought 1 mg / Litre was alright). Still, your vet seems directly responsible for your frog's sudden death.

[Kerry1968]

So sorry to hear about your loss Laura. What a terrible thing to happen. You know you did eveything you could for this frog and only did what the 'professional' told you to do.

[daydreaming]

sorry to hear about your frog, you did do everything you could and as kerry said you got advise from a proffesional. i know it dosent help much but this is not your fault some times things just happen and you were in no way to blame. xxx

[Darkmaverick]

Hello,

So sorry to hear of your loss. In terms of dosage, the gentamin prescribed was ok. I think in this case, it might be a rare adverse effect (as opposed to side effect). The frog could haven been dehydrated and already weakened substantially due to its illness or just reacted really severely to the medication.

You have done all you could with the best of intention so do not be too hard on yourself.

Was the frog weighed beforehand? Normally when giving antibiotics, we go by the body weight of the animal. I don't have much experience with prescribing antibiotic baths as i tend to go by the injectable route. Personally i find that with baths, it is hard to accurately deliver the exact dosage required into the system since a large extent relies on transdermal absorption, and skin is selectively permeable.

Other possibilities could be preparation error. Wrong volumes, wrong solutions, inappropriate temperature, contamination etc.

I am normally found in caudata.org and so i do not really log on to this forum. If you have any questions, you can relay them to kerry or John whom im sure will contact me through caudata.

I am flattered John valued my ideas. However, i am not an amphibian specialist. I am a small animal vet with advanced training in oncology, microbiology, immunology and lab animal medicine. I do have a special interest in amphibians though and will try help when i can.

Regards.

[lraulston]

Thank you all for your kind words. Yes, the frog was weighed before hand. I suppose I will call the vet today- though I am dreading it SO much.

[lraulston]

I just called the vet's office, and the vet I saw was not in the office today. I left a message with the desk to have her call me tomorrow after hours. We will see. I am just killing myself trying to think of things I could have done differently. Maybe the water was too deep and it freaked him out...though it was just covering his back legs- all he had to do was hold his head up instead he shoved it down level to his front feet. It was a little deeper than his water bowl (which he freaked out in earlier that day) to cover his back legs, but not deep. I am just sad.

[daydreaming]

its not your fault and there is no point in keeo thinking about it over and over you will just make your self feel even worse

[lraulston]

its not your fault and there is no point in keeo thinking about it over and over you will just make your self feel even worse

Thanks. I appreciate your support and kind words.