froggie update

[Kurt]

I just called the vet's office, and the vet I saw was not in the office today. I left a message with the desk to have her call me tomorrow after hours. We will see. I am just killing myself trying to think of things I could have done differently

Well I e-mailed my vet, Greg Mertz DVM and this was his response, "Hi Kurt. I looked quickly. Gentamicin is toxic to frogs, never use it in a frog. Its close cousin amikacin is not. The death seems abrupt to be caused directly from the gentamicin. So the blood and stuff is probably related to another scenairio like how meds given, handling, etc. The stool she shows on picture is parasite ridden I am sure, I can almost see the worms in the picture. Greg"

So there you have another professional opinion. So sorry for your loss.

[daydreaming]

hey no problem, i know how hard losing a pet can be (i lost 2 rats before 1 to cancer and 1 to a stroke) i know things take time to heal. just remember you stil have another little froggie who needs you.

[John]

Kurt, what are the dosages of metronidazole and fenbendazole? I have the means to administer both and I have fenbendazole/panacur at home. I will acquire some flagyl too. What does Greg think of ivermectin and amphibians?

Having read what Greg has said, I think it likely that Laura's frogs were not CB as petco claimed.

[Kurt]

I will get back to you on the dosages. Her frogs still could have been captive bred. I have noticed a lot of petco and other pet stores do not clean out cage in between new arrivals, so it is possible that may have picked something there.
My White's came for Petco, but when Greg did a fecal it was as clean as a whistle. I guess Laura did not get as lucky as I, both frog and veternarian wise. So sorry.

[John]

Odd question but what does Greg charge and can I mail him frog poop?

[Kurt]

I don't know, I can ask him. My thoughts are, can a fecal sample stay fresh enough if mailed from Texas to Massachusetts?

[John]

I don't know, I can ask him. My thoughts are, can a fecal sample stay fresh enough if mailed from Texas to Massachusetts?

It has to be fresh?

[Kurt]

Yes, no more 48 hours old I think. Maybe even less than that. Old, dry fecal samples cannot be tested for parasites.

[lraulston]

Well I e-mailed my vet, Greg Mertz DVM and this was his response, "Hi Kurt. I looked quickly. Gentamicin is toxic to frogs, never use it in a frog. Its close cousin amikacin is not. The death seems abrupt to be caused directly from the gentamicin. So the blood and stuff is probably related to another scenairio like how meds given, handling, etc.The stool she shows on picture is parasite ridden I am sure, I can almost see the worms in the picture. Greg"

So there you have another professional opinion. So sorry for your loss.

so, does this mean that he thought that the sudden death DID NOT have to do directly with the gentamicin? I was just confused and wondered if he meant to write that it was "too abrupt" or if he meant that it was from the meds. The blood on the paper towel wasn't present until I got back from the vet- so my guess was from her handling him and checking him out? I saw no worms in the feces at all, but there very well could have been. THe other frog seems to have healthy "frog logs" of feces though.

[John]

I'm not a vet but I do know something about chemicals and biology. I don't think the gentamicin itself could have that effect on an amphibian in that concentration or anything close to it. It had to be something else in there or a huge miscalculation in what you received in the vial.

[lraulston]

OK..I am just really confused now. Kurt's vet said that Gentamicin was toxic-but I was confused about his statment as well. Basically I am still trying to rule out that I did not do anything wrong. OCD is a pain in the butt. I am just wondering what else if not the Gentamicin could have caused what happened? I will hopefully speak with the vet tomorrow. I just want answers so I can feel off the hook. I am sorry for asking so many questions over and over.

[John]

You were never on the hook Laura, really. Toxic does not usually mean insta-kill.

[Kurt]

My understanding from Greg Mertz's statement is that Gentamicin mostly is the cause of death and the original problem with the frog could be parasite related. Greg has seen more than his share of fecal samples, so when he looked at your pics he saw what would indicate a possible worm infestation. Of course the only way to say for certain would be a fecal exam.

[lraulston]

Just spoke with the vet. She said she had never heard of anything like that happening with a frog before. She said that she personally calculated and drew up and dulited the meds herself and that there was no error. She told me that it could have been a severe allergic reaction to the meds but other than that she had no guess.

[Kurt]

I have e-mailed another vet for his opinion on the subject. This veterinarian specializes in amphibian medicine.

[lraulston]

I appreciate it. I just wonder because he freaked out in his water bowl before if it was not something wierd specifically with this frog?

[lraulston]

I was told on another site that it could have been chytrid? What do you guys think? http://www.fdrproject.org.au/pages/disease/CHYrecog.htm

This site talks about frogs with it trying to escape water. http://www.freewebs.com/aquafrog/readthisfirst.htm

I'm really freaked out now- this would mean isolating and treating the other frog which I am scared to death to do, and cleaning out a tank each day before I put him back

[Kurt]

I was told on another site that it could have been chytrid? What do you guys think?

I don't even have to look at those links, I can tell you that it wasn't chytridiomycosis. The symptoms are all wrong. I had a fire salamander die of it not too long ago. The salamander stopped eating and hiding, was lethargic, and its skin was flaking off, especially on it's underside. He looked horrible.

I'm really freaked out now- this would mean isolating and treating the other frog which I am scared to death to do, and cleaning out a tank each day before I put him back

Isolating why? Do you have other frogs?

[John]

Definitely not chytrid. Laura, I know it's difficult but you have to get past this - you didn't do anything wrong and there's nothing to be done about it now. I have some lovely little gray treefrog froglets that would love to meet you and they won't drop dead on you.