LLL Reptile+ USAFrogs.com = RUN

[DigitalPunk]

It has been discovered in recent months that LLL Reptile is purchasing frogs from USAFrog.com and reselling them. The over all issue with this is USAFrogs openly breeds hybrid frogs, miss labels their frogs with false made up names and is just an all around breeder you want to avoid. I had in the past enjoyed purchasing frogs from LLL, but in light of this news will now longer be purchasing any frogs or items from their online store. Just wanted to share this out there.


If this information is incorrect than I welcome LLL reptile to reply to my post and help clear this up. I saw Sips for sale at their NARBC table with USAFrogs fake names on them. They had Green Sips Labled as Creme and so on.

[irThumper]

Oog, not good. So when you say hybrid frogs is this pertaining to Darts? I only know about White's and, while some people apparently don't cross Indo x Aussie, that isn't technically hybridizing since they are the same exact species. I quite frankly don't see how it's avoidable anyway, seeing no Aussie WTFs have been let out of Australia (legally) in years, and if the same lines keep getting crossed back onto each other (which is happening with certain WTFs anyway when breeders buy from one source) the frogs will become too inbred and genetically weak, so some crossing to wc Indos will have to be done to maintain a stable genetics base. Anyway... I was talking to someone from a recent expo I went to and they were talking about hybrid Darts, and how it's a problem and can get breeders blacklisted and all for doing it, so I wondered if this was the case? I really couldn't say much to him since I know jack diddly about Darts, but I'd asked him if the WTFS he had were Aussies, Indos, or crossed and he said he didn't know but swung right into the Dart convo, so yeah... lol.

[BrittsBugs]

Agreed thumper, with WTF's my primary reason I'm not in agreement they they should be a popular beginner pet. They're becoming more and more genetically weak if not crossbreed (if you will with Indos), and many amphibian breeders refuse to cross the two separate species (if you will) so as to not dilute either line. While others don't really care.

And I've not seen or heard about anyone who would publicly admit to cross breeding darts.

Their site says they do not mix or cross breed species. Their site has only positive reviews, and the only other negative post I've seen on them is in fauanaforums.

Does anyone actually have any proof these darts are hybrids? I have only seen heresay. Any official investigation(s)?

Admittedly, I don't know a soul who will purchase darts from anyone but Josh's Frogs.


-BrittsBugs
6 AUS White's
1 Hon Milk
1 SM Corn
1 BP
5 HC
1 CG
4 RB Newts
6 Betas
5 MHR

[LilyPad]

Oy, that is so very disappointing. Thanks for the info, Paul.

[Tzunu un]

Please see the thread in Dendroboard regarding USA frogs as it has a lot of information.
(this is the active thread and is long. there is also an older closed thread)
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/gen...s-usafrog.html

There is also a thread at Dart Den, but you need to be a member there to read.


According to these threads, LLL is selling some of USA Frogs, and USA Frogs is making hybrids between different morphs.

As far as I know USA Frogs is only raising dart frogs.


I do not want to get into an active discussion about this as you will more than get your fill from the threads about USA Frogs, their business practices, and interaction with the dart frog community.
Their web page states that they have over 8,000 tadpoles/frogs in house, anyone else have concerns with mass production at this scale?

You can also find a letter from Dr. Stefan Lotters (main author of “Poison Frogs: Biology, Species, and Captive Husbandry”) informing USA Frogs to stop using material from his book on their site / for marketing, that they have misinterpreted and misused the work, and how he disapproves.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/gen...e-lotters.html



Like Paul, I personally choose not to ever consider buying from USA Frogs or USA Frogs' frogs indirectly from other sources.

I strongly urge everyone to make sure that they have breeder / source information for any dart frogs purchased and that they buy from reputable breeders / suppliers that will provide this information. If they won't provide source information, then I would be concerned.....bad reviews posted, then I would be concerned.

This will make sure that you have quality frogs, will hamper/stop illegal importation, and will keep any potentially "questionable" breeding stock out of the hobby and from being sold.

[DigitalPunk]

If you are looking for Dart frogs and want to buy something outside of what Josh has there are several reputable breeders as well as a whole host of hobby breeders that can be found on facebook. If you are seriously interested PM me and I can point you to some of my favorites.

[DigitalPunk]

and yes this pertains only to Dart frogs. Sorry I didn't make that clearer in my first post. The Hobby as a whole is at war with USAFrogs. Finding out a company like LLL is reselling their frogs is truly.

[irThumper]

I'm a die-hard White's tree frog frogger, so won't be in the market for Darts, but I do enjoy looking at other folks Dart frogs that and it pays to have up to date info when discussing other froggers frogs :P I went and looked at that USAfrogs website just for the helluvit and was overwhelmed by all the trademarked falderal... that in itself is enough to make a person head for the hills @_@

Good info, if anyone asks me about this I will be sure to direct them here!

[ColleenT]

i agree with James, i have seen the long-long-long Threads on Dendro about them and peoples experiences and what they know about them. I would stay clear of ordering Darts from LLL now, unless they tell you they are NOT buying from USAfrog, which has changed their name many times.

[deranged chipmunk]

That is why I always recommend buying darts from a well known, respected, private dealer. One that can tell you the lineage of the frog(s) without hesitation. Not all breeders can do that. Not even Josh's, as Paul can attest to.


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[ColleenT]

that said, i have purchased healthy reptiles from LLL before and their supplies are well priced.

[LilyPad]

that said, i have purchased healthy reptiles from LLL before and their supplies are well priced.

Yes, my red eyes from them are very healthy.

Paul, have you contacted them through their website to find out of if that's what they are doing?

[Tzunu un]

Two posters on the Dendroboard contacted LLL and they confirmed that they do some business with USA Frogs.

ZookeeperDoug (post#1542)
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/gen...safrog-39.html

planted-tnk-guy (post#1561)
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/gen...safrog-40.html


From these posts, it's apparent LLL is now also aware of the concerns and has been listening / forthcoming with discussing. So, if anyone has questions, they should contact LLL directly.


I personally have a hard time supporting businesses that go against my principles.

I too have purchased from LLL in the past and had a good experience, so I hope this issue resolves.

[DigitalPunk]

I have done a fair amount of business with LLL and had them up on the same level as Josh's frogs for beginners in the hobby.

As Bill said the issue I have come across with Josh's frogs recently is they can not with any certainty tell you the lineage of the frogs you purchase from them. Mostly it is because they have multiple breeding pairs and don't keep the off spring separate (which I don't fault them on), but the more I learn about the hobby and the more I get involved in breeding the more I value having those questions answered.


Back on topic.

I have not contacted LLL. I had a couple other issues with them recently and this just pushed me over the edge. I am not sure what they could do now to salvage me as a returning customer. Which makes me sad.


This threads original intent was to bring the fact that LLL is buying and reselling frogs from USAFrogs to the attention of this community. It is up to each person to do with that information what they see to be the best choice for them.

[Tzunu un]

Today, LLL Reptile posted a letter on the Dendroboard thread mentioned above.

They state that they have suspended doing business with USAFrogs and have formally requested that USAFrogs stop producing hybrid dart frogs.


It is a nice gesture that they listened to the concerns.

I hope that this prompts other businesses / resellers to follow their lead and do the same.

[DigitalPunk]

That is excellent news thanks for updating us.

[The Jumping Treefrog]

just buy darts from joshs frogs! they have the best customer service