I want...cane toad or...........something active

[SethD]

Come one Seth, you can't quote his entire long post and rebuke it with a line of text. Please elaborate.

Ok John, I didn't plan on going through it line by line because I didn't want it to look as if I was attacking everything he said or something but since you asked for a more extensive response...

I meant toads in general arent active. I know what you meant by active. Toads in general tend to hide or just sit there. Only toad that will move around more abit are oak toads which are small.

Toads are inactive and will hide. All of them besides the oak toads will. Even the simple american toads. Only time you will ever see them move around is if you get night vision goggles and look at them when the lights are off.

Toads in general tend to hide or "just sit there" primarily when things are to dry(of course no frog moves around all the time but I don't think that was what was meant). If captive conditions are right they are at least as active as most other frogs. As far as why oak toads are singled out as "more active" I have no idea as their activity level seems to be quite normal, only difference is they are one of the species that is primarily diurnal so that might have some effect. Even nocturnal species commonly move around during the day though in captivity. This is a extreme example of it but as a matter of fact my southern toads seem to have become almost completely diurnal over the several years I have had them. They are out and about every single day and at night huddle up and sleep or burrow most of the time. Don't ask me why they decided to do that though, I haven't figured it out yet. Anyway the point is you certainly will see all species of toads moving around at times when the lights are on. The night vision goggles comment is pretty funny.

Cane toads will hide.... I like my cane toad. But she hides, so she can be dull sometimes. If you pick her up she squirts(pee) on you. Shes skittish as are pretty much most cane toads

Some are more shy than others but most will tame down pretty well with time. As a whole I wouldn't say this species is shy or prone to hiding at all. The squirting comment I wouldn't doubt at all as that is pretty common defensive behavior in many species.

Toads are skittish in general.

A completely inaccurate assertion.

Cane toads NEED a large enclosure, and they foul up the tank quickly. Cane toads need A BARE MINIMUM of 75gallon. Know why? The normal cane toad female gets to be 9inches or more. Males get to be 7inches and tend to grow bigger as they get older. They are active at night when the lights are out(you can keep em on and they will still hide). So they still need the space. The fact that they are powerful jumpers means they shouldnt go in anything less. Males can go in a 55g. A trio of males can go in that. A Trio of females can go in a 75g. Just dont keep em in a 40breeder or a 10gallon or anything small. These animals need to stretch their legs fully and not smack their faces into the glass when they hop. They dont walk, they hop.

Ok , lets deal with this bit. We are told that cane toads need "A BARE MINIMUM of 75gallon". Skipping over for now the fact that this is a inaccurate statement lets go to the reason given for why this is supposedly necessary. We are told that a "normal" cane toad female gets to 9 inches or more while males get to be around 7 inches. This is also wrong unless by a "normal" cane toad you only mean canes that come out of the back country of Suriname and Guyana. Those are probably a separate race and are only rarely available in the hobby in small numbers and always command a premium price. Most of the canes in the USA hobby are wc in florida. These max out at around 6.5 inches or so for females and usually around 5 inches for males. I guarantee no wc female cane from Florida will reach 9 inches and the difference between a 6.5 inch toad and a 9 inch toad is huge. The latter easily has twice the mass of the former. Now lets go back to what we are told on tank size. We are told that a trio of males can go into a 55 gal. but not a 40 gal. breeder. That really defies logic since a 55 gal. is actually narrower than a 40 gal. breeder and supposedly the reason at least a 55 gal. is needed is so they won't bang their nose on the glass(not an issue with most toads anyway since most species are not particularly nervous nor are they powerful jumpers when compared to other frogs). I have had a pair of rococo toads in a 40 gal. breeder for quite some time and they are larger than the average cane toad if you don't count the giant Suriname or Guyana race of cane toad. They are active healthy and hearty eaters and they certainly don't beat themselves up on the glass. I am quite sure moving them to a 75 wouldn't make the slightest difference.

If you want anything that will not be hiding go for a dumpys tree frog or some firebellied toads. But toads will defenitely hide alot.

Dumpys certainly are no more active than most toads so I don't know where that comes from. Firebellies are indeed active so I would agree with that.

As for a set up, you need a heavily planted garden set up. These toads prefer to hang around gardens.

Again, this is based on what? In reality these toads are extremely adaptable provided they have access to water. They will no doubt do fine in a "garden set up"(what ever that is lol) but the same is true for a wide variety of setups.

It cant be overly moist. If you have a hydrometer keep the humidity at 50%.

Maybe I am reading this wrong but it seems like that this is two totally contradictory statements. He says it can't be to moist and then recommends 50% humidity which is quite dry. 50% humidity and lower is getting into the levels they get out in west texas and arizona. Dry as a bone. If he is keeping his cane at 50% humidity that may explain why it hides all the time, it is trying to conserve moisture. While canes can survive just fine with such low levels of humidity provided they have a water bowl it isn't optimal and is very likely to produce a toad that hides more often such as he describes.

Put heat bulbs, the ones that dont give off a light keep it on all night and day on one end. Make sure one end is 80 and the cooler end is 75.

While providing a range of temps for the toad is in theory a positive and certainly doesn't hurt only 5 degrees difference between the cool end and the warm end makes virtually no difference at all. Such a small variation would not be helpful but it would at least be harmless.

Give it LOTS of hiding places. Make sure it has atleast 5inches of dirt(deep).

Concerning lots of hiding places, there is nothing wrong with that though it probably isn't needed, one would likely be enough. I do wonder where the "Make sure it has at least 5inches of dirt" comes from though. While they can bury themselves in loose substrate and will occasionally, both in the wild and in captivity they tend to dig only very shallow depressions and sit in those. In the wild they rarely dig deeper than the leaf litter. They aren't what I would consider a burrowing toad in most situations.

Don't use coco husk. These toads HATE coco husk. Not just these toads, toads in general hate it. coco husk sticks to their skin and irritates them. Use plain dirt.

Agree with this.

give it a large bowl of water for soaking.

Agree with this too.

There John, a statement by statement elaboration. Better?

BTW Deku, like I said in another post I don't want to pick on you and everyone has to start somewhere, so try not to take this statement by statement rebuttal of nearly everything you said in this post to personally. Keep working with frogs and trying to avoid making stuff up out of thin air and gradually you will get more knowledgeable and won't need to make stuff up anymore.

[Deku]

@SethD:
No Iam not making stuff up out of thin air. 50% humidity in one of those "crappy" humidity readers from exo terras whenever it reads 50% it tends tobe higher than that. These toads like moisture but they cant be TOO moist. My toad hides alot not because of the moisture because the dirt is certainly moist enough. I use a fogger every few days to keep it at a certain humidity. As for the tank size a 40breeder is too small for these toads. They need to be able to walk around. So length and width is in order. Its why I said a 75g for a female. Because if it ever jumps in wont bang its head on the cealing of the tank, which they do that. My toad was a "rescue" persay, which was taken in froma bad petstore who didnt take enough time to even put water in their dish and mixed it up with some skinks. Its one reason why they are shy. In reality yes in the wild they are not that shy. But since petstores rarely take care of their animals and even if you bought it off some online site itll still be stressed and will be skittish. In reality toads really are skittish, because if you notice their behaviour in the wild most of these will run away from you as much as possible. meaning if you tried to hold one itll jump high and plop to the ground and hurt itself. Thus thats one reason why I said its skittish, and since there is NO captive bred toads for sale then toads will still be like this. Toads in reality are not being captive bred. Oak toads are more active, because not only are they diurnal meaning you will be able to see them during broad daylight, but they tend to be very "bold". You can see them anywhere, when I visited a friend of mine, went to his backyard a ton of these were just hopping around, some didnt even ran away when we picked them up. As for heat not making much of a difference, it actually does. Amphibians and reptiles in general cannot controll their body temperatures so we must give them a source of heat, and a way to get away from the said heat. 5 degrees DOES make a difference. If you go outside in a hot sunny day, and you go under a tree you immedietly feel cooler right? Its only a few degrees below under the tree. So it is somewhat significant. There shouldnt be a very strong fluctuation of temperatures because I believe its like we stepping out of a hot shower and stepping in a cold room. Toads in general like to bury down deep into the earth. Where I used to live I found alot of these toads. They used to burry down deep into the soil in our backyard and at night they would come out and stand under a lamp post to eat flying insects. They NEVER come out during daytime. We should mimick their natural environment as much as possible. Yes cane toads are highly adaptable. A garden set up would be like:
-Grass
-Plants
-Rocks
-Dish

Thats what I define as a garden set up. Cane toads do grow to 9 inches. Where I used to live(Puertorico) you could see some female cane toads the size of 9-12 inches. The males were significantly smaller 5inches to 7inches.
I suggested a dumpys treefrog as a begginner because he was asking for something that atleast SITS in front of the tank and not hiding alot. I currently own one of these and he never hides on me. He even sits on my hand whenever I pick him up. He sits there. But hes not hiding. Its one of the things he was asking for.

[Deku]

Toads are nocturnal creatures. You can even tell by their eyes, its made for night time.
The night vision goggles was a joke. :/
I learn on my own, and on what I read, what I consulted with other people who keep toads. Toads arent "tame" animals, they are wild animals. Reasons why your toad maybe active during daylight hours is because you may have the lights on constantly. Or entice it with foods. Again generally toads are skittish, nocturnal animals.

[Kurt]

OK I have to jump in here now. I currently keep three species of Bufonids myself, was four, but the green toad died. Not a single one of my toads buries down deep into the earth. The rococo will make a shallow depression and sit in it but thats it.

As far as tank size, he/she is in a 30 gallon tank, which is three times the the size he/she had when he/she lived at a certain museum, of a certain university, that has a certain yard, that you really can't park a car in. Not going to name names. I think Seth already pointed out that rococo's are bigger than marine/cane toads.

For the most part, my toads do not hide. Once in a while, maybe, but for the most part they are always visible.

[Deku]

OK I have to jump in here now. I currently keep three species of Bufonids myself, was four, but the green toad died. Not a single one of my toads buries down deep into the earth. The rococo will make a shallow depression and sit in it but thats it.

As far as tank size, he/she is in a 30 gallon tank, which is three times the the size he/she had when he/she lived at a certain museum, of a certain university, that has a certain yard, that you really can't park a car in. Not going to name names. I think Seth already pointed out that rococo's are bigger than marine/cane toads.

For the most part, my toads do not hide. Once in a while, maybe, but for the most part they are always visible.

Okay. Sorry, I just remember seeing alot of toads besides mine that used to hide alot where I worked at. As for the tank size. I still stand my ground on that. Why would you put an animal in a smaller tank? No offense, or trying to question your authority. But I think toads and frogs should have alot of room unless they are sedentary like pacmans and even then I think pacmans should be in a 20long minimum. I can tell you this I know for a fact that cane toads dont stay small. When I go to puertorico this summer Ill try going out at night to find them and take photos. When I get my computer fixed ill try posting pictures of them. As for the burrowing mine, and my friends tend to burrow deep into the earth. :/ Just saying. To be completely honest only ones that never did that where a couple of american toads that I just kept for a week for studying on them.

[SethD]

@SethD:
No Iam not making stuff up out of thin air. 50% humidity in one of those "crappy" humidity readers from exo terras whenever it reads 50% it tends tobe higher than that. My toad hides alot not because of the moisture because the dirt is certainly moist enough. I use a fogger every few days to keep it at a certain humidity.

Then why tell the other guy to keep the humidity at 50% at all? Your just digging yourself deeper. Canes actually do well in high humidity. Try keeping the humidity up around 80 or 90% for a while and see if the toad doesn't get more active and look better.

My toad was a "rescue" persay, which was taken in froma bad petstore who didnt take enough time to even put water in their dish and mixed it up with some skinks. Its one reason why they are shy. In reality yes in the wild they are not that shy. But since petstores rarely take care of their animals and even if you bought it off some online site itll still be stressed and will be skittish.

What? That isn't going to effect anything at all once it is cared for properly and has had time to tame down. We are talking a toad here not a puppy.

In reality toads really are skittish, because if you notice their behaviour in the wild most of these will run away from you as much as possible. meaning if you tried to hold one itll jump high and plop to the ground and hurt itself. Thus thats one reason why I said its skittish, and since there is NO captive bred toads for sale then toads will still be like this. Toads in reality are not being captive bred.

Okaaay... If your standard for "skittish" is wild animals that will try to get away from you if you pick one up then pretty much every frog is "skittish". Indeed almost all wild animals are. Bearded dragons are not known for being skittish but your not just going to be able to walk up to a wild one and pick it up without it trying to escape. That is a poor way to use the term. Skittish would be more properly applied to certain species of frogs that rarely tame down well and panic and start jumping into the glass every time you open the tank. As far as I know no toads species fits that, most of the time it is ranids and perhaps a very few types of darts. By the way I assure you captive bred toads are not any tamer than long term captive wc toads. I have bred several species and the offspring are not any tamer than the adults. It doesn't matter if they are CB or WC from a taming point of view.

As for heat not making much of a difference, it actually does. Amphibians and reptiles in general cannot controll their body temperatures so we must give them a source of heat, and a way to get away from the said heat. 5 degrees DOES make a difference. If you go outside in a hot sunny day, and you go under a tree you immedietly feel cooler right? Its only a few degrees below under the tree. So it is somewhat significant. There shouldnt be a very strong fluctuation of temperatures because I believe its like we stepping out of a hot shower and stepping in a cold room. Toads in general like to bury down deep into the earth. Where I used to live I found alot of these toads. They used to burry down deep into the soil in our backyard and at night they would come out and stand under a lamp post to eat flying insects. They NEVER come out during daytime. We should mimick their natural environment as much as possible.

Most of the time toads are far more concerned with moisture levels then temps. This is particularly true when we are only talking a difference of 5 degrees F. If you want to try an experiment split a toads habitat between a cooler and dry area and a slightly warmer and damp area and see where it spends the most time. Then make the cooler area moist and the warmer area dry and see if the toad doesn't follow the moisture instead of the temps.

Cane toads do grow to 9 inches. Where I used to live(Puertorico) you could see some female cane toads the size of 9-12 inches.

I don't know for certain just how big the introduced canes in Puerto Rico get but I am pretty skeptical that females actually reach up to 12 inches STV. If they did they would probably have been be exported to the USA before now as there is significant demand for any frog that size. Giant frogs and toads are like giant snakes though, they tends to shrink quite a bit when you put a tape measure to them. I have only ever seen a handful of canes that honestly reached 12 inches and every last one of them was from either suriname or guyana. The very biggest one of those I have ever seen was claimed to be over 15 in. and really did measure an honest 14 inches by the tape measure. Canes from any other area(florida, costa rica, honduras australia etc.) tend to be quite a bit smaller, almost always under eight inches. A actual twelve inch toad is truly a stunningly monstrous animal. Most people haven't actually seen one that size.

[Deku]

@SethD:
50% humidity comming from a zoomed humidity reader tends to be actually damper than what it says. You can even touch the ground, lift your hand up and your hand will feel moist. Again from my personal experience my humidity reader always reads 50percent when its higher, and the lower the humidity the lower it goes. Its a fail humidity reader but I havent found a better one yet.

Taming toads? Toads in captivity can be skittish in my opinion. I have gone to petstores and asked to hold one and when they guy reaches in the toad jumps franctically into the wall and slams his head in. So with alot of frogs. Only toads Ived personally seen havent been that frightened are common american toads, firebellied toads(not true toads), sonoran desert toads, oak toads. You say its a toad not a puppy. I agree, it IS a toad. So lets start treating a toad like a toad. Rather than if its a puppy. In reality you shouldnt hold most amphibians because the salts in your skins, and all the other substances in it can do harm to the amphibian. But in reality we chose to handle them still, of course we wash our hands and keep em wet. But still, in reality a toad isnt a "tame" pet. Its not going to do tricks for you, sit, or anything else of the sort.

Just because YOU havent seen a 9inch-12inch cane toad from puertorico doesnt mean I havent. Theres more than enough meals for a cane toad to grow that large in puertorico, with all the roaches, and insects crawling around in evey nook and cranny. Not to mention the humidity in puertorico is quite high, as are the temperatures. Like I just said, just because YOU havent doesnt mean I havent. Its your personal opinion I respect that, but I know what I saw.


In my opinion, a cane toad needs as much temperatures as it needs heat. Cane toads thrive in very warm climates, moist climates. But being told by a friend that making it overly moist can lead to fungus infection I tried not to make it as moist as I had it. This is more of personal experiences.

4inches of earth worked for me(my personal experience). Not saying 2inches of dirt or no dirt is bad. But why not give it some dirt if you can? I mean its not going to hurt it certainly. It would actually do some good to it if it wanted to dig down to the deepest part.

[SethD]

@SethD:
50% humidity comming from a zoomed humidity reader tends to be actually damper than what it says. You can even touch the ground, lift your hand up and your hand will feel moist. Again from my personal experience my humidity reader always reads 50percent when its higher, and the lower the humidity the lower it goes. Its a fail humidity reader but I havent found a better one yet.

LOL. In other words your saying that you know you have a poor humidity gage that doesn't work yet in spite of that you recommend readings you get from it even though you know the readings are wrong. Don't you think that is just a bit confusing?

Just because YOU havent seen a 9inch-12inch cane toad from puertorico doesnt mean I havent. Theres more than enough meals for a cane toad to grow that large in puertorico, with all the roaches, and insects crawling around in evey nook and cranny. Not to mention the humidity in puertorico is quite high, as are the temperatures. Like I just said, just because YOU havent doesnt mean I havent. Its your personal opinion I respect that, but I know what I saw.

First, how big a cane will get has a lot to do with genetics, no matter how much you feed a florida cane it will not reach the size some Suriname canes can reach. I doubt the puerto rico canes are capable of reaching the size you say they reach.

You may "know" you have seen 12 in. canes there but I also know fellow texans that "know" they have seen 20 ft. alligators and "black panthers". Some of these people are normally reasonable outdoorsmen too but you can't convince them they didn't actually see what they thought they saw. I know that their 20 ft alligators are more like 12-13ft and their "black panthers" are misidentifications of various things but they won't believe that for anything. I strongly suspect the 12in. canes you have seen over there would shrink down to around 8 inches give or take perhaps a half inch at the most if placed next to a tape measure. Tell you what though, since you say your going back there this summer take a pic of the largest one you can find next to a tape measure and post it here. If I can see that it is anywhere near 12 inches I will be happy to apologize for doubting you. If you can find one that honestly measures even the 9 inches you say is the norm I will be surprised and if you can find one over 10 inches or anywhere near the twelve inches you say the larger ones reach over there I will be EXTREMELY surprised and will place a little more faith in your observations. At the moment I am pretty skeptical.

[Deku]

Ok Seth believe what you want. I don't have to prove anything to you. If I find one of these toads where Iam staying Ill take a picture of it.

[John]

Seth and Kevin, we appreciate constructive conversation and healthy disagreement on this forum. This is not it. Move on, both of you.

[Kurt]

Skittish would be more properly applied to certain species of frogs that rarely tame down well and panic and start jumping into the glass every time you open the tank. As far as I know no toads species fits that, most of the time it is ranids and perhaps a very few types of darts.

Have you ever kept Anaxyrus debilis insidior? I found them to be quite skittish. Same with my Ollotis alvaria. My Chaunus schneideri and Melanophryniscus stelzneri are, however, quite even tempered. They never panic.

[SethD]

Have you ever kept Anaxyrus debilis insidior? I found them to be quite skittish. Same with my Ollotis alvaria. My Chaunus schneideri and Melanophryniscus stelzneri are, however, quite even tempered. They never panic.

No I haven't kept green toads. They are a native texas species. You need permits and paperwork if you have more than 25 native texas reptile or amphibian species total or ten of one type as I recall. I don't feel like doing that when there are plenty of non-native choices with no restrictions. Since I work towards breeding most everything I keep eventually I never messed with them. Obviously one successful breeding would put me way over the legal limit without a "dealers license" which if I recall is something you need. I have messed around a bit with Colorado river toads and they didn't seem that skittish to me. I haven't worked with them to any significant degree though. Southern toads are a bit skittish as they are more easily startled than some other species of toads but once they realize they are being fed or what ever they calm right down. Some toads are a little more jumpy than others but I don't think any of them compare to a lot of ranids or even things like darts. I have never had a problem with any toad being so jumpy it caused problems and even the more jumpy toad species will usually calm down quite a bit with time. I certainly wouldn't classify toads as a group as being more jumpy than other types of frogs, they are definitely one of the more laid back groups.

[Kurt]

By and large, I do consider Bufonids to be more laid back than most Anurans, but these green toads are the most skittish frog I have ever seen. Had them for three years and they never calmed down.

[frigs]

i know this is an old post and i dint read all the way through but i worked at a pet store and they had bumble bee toads which were active a lot I've never kept them personally and they don't get very large but if your still looking for a toad u could consider these.