Stressed/nervous frogs.

[irThumper]

Hi everyone,
we have two WTFs that we have had for two months now. Two weeks after picking them up we took them to the vet who after doing a fecal sample treated them for protoza and then dropped the bombshell that they had lung worms, a pretty bad case of it. (He assures me that the amount they had means we brought them home with it, as I was pretty upset that i could have been our fault)

It was decided that we would wait until they got bigger/heavier to start treating them as 1 weighed 9 grams and other 15 grams.
So I started feeding them everyday(on advice of the vet), making sure that I placed the locusts (this is what they were fed in the shop and so they will not entertain crickets) infront of the little one as otherwise the larger one seemed to beat him to it everytime.

Now my problem is that I have to phone the vets with the weights each week. I don't normally handle the frogs and so getting them out for this is starting to stress them to the point that when i open the doors to feed them they go and hide. This isn't a problem for the larger one who is prety good at launching himself across the tank and still catching the food he is going for, but little one isn't so great at this. They are both putting weight on, but now its getting to the point were if you even go near the tank the little one especially will jump away and hide.

I don't want to stress them anymore than I have to but they need weighing so that we can hopefully start treatment soon. I was just wondering if anyone has any ideas/tips to make it less stressful for them?

Thanks in advance.

Welcome to FrogForum, Bee Sorry your froggles aren't well

Could you answer the questions in this post? http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...enclosure.html It would really help us to make an informed decision and give you the best answer we can, thanks!

Here are a few questions I have in addition:

--Where did you purchased your froggles?
--How old/what size they were when you got them?
--What kind of protozoans did the vet say your frogs had?
--What did he treat them with for the protozoa? How was it given/how much per frog?

I'm a bit stymied about why the vet decided to wait to treat for lungworm, especially if it is "severe"?? And yet your frogs are gaining weight and seeming to thrive otherwise? I wouldn't think that 9 and 15 grams would be too small to treat... he did give them an anti-protozoal medication after all. I started medicating my frogs when they were 5, 7, 9 and 11 grams respectively; the smallest dose of medication (Metronidazole, which is an antibiotic/anti-protozoal) was 0.02ml. I believe the most common medication for lungworm is ivermectin or fenbendazole (Panacur), your frogs should be able to receive medication now. I also fed my frogs daily throughout their medication when they were juveniles/sub-adults; they are now young adults and still are fed daily (sometimes every other day if they had a big meal previously), I generally feed 3-4 food items one day and one food item the next day and repeat. If I give something like earthworm I will skip the next days feeding to give it more time to digest.

As for the frogs being scared of being handled and being stressed, there's only one way to fix that-- and I know not everyone will agree-- you have to handle them more and habituate them to it. Now, I don't mean excessively, or for extended periods of time, but when you have to weigh frogs, and examine frogs, or transport frogs from their tank for cleaning, eating (if you feed in a separate enclosure), or to take to the vet you want them to remain as calm as possible. Yes, all these things will stress them more... but if a frog is used to being handled GENTLY, and learns nothing bad will come of this, then they will in time calm down. Now the caveat here is that some frogs just have a flighty disposition and may never really calm down and get used to it (I have a couple like that!) but most White's tree frogs will. Before I explain further can you tell me HOW you handle your frogs? How do you capture them to weight them, and what is the process you use to weigh them? This could make a big difference in the success, or lack thereof, you have been having so far. Hopefully we'll be able to get them to the point where you can at least get them out successfully for their weighing and treatments

[irThumper]

Here is some information on Lungworm, by the way...

Rhabdiasis, caused by the lungworm Rhabdias sp, commonly causes pulmonary damage and secondary infections in captive amphibians. This nematode has a direct life cycle with free-living phases. Adult worms live in the lungs, where they deposit larvated eggs that are coughed up, swallowed, and then excreted into the environment. Infective L3 larvae then burrow through the skin of a new host, where they mature and migrate to the lungs. Affected animals may appear anorectic, thin, and generally debilitated. A premortem diagnosis may be made by finding ova or worms in oral and nasal secretions. Infection should be suspected when nematode larva and larvated eggs are found in fresh feces from an animal with clinical signs. When rhabdiasis is suspected, treatment using fenbendazole (100 mg/kg/day, PO, for 2 days then repeated 12–14 days later) or ivermectin (200–400 mcg/kg, PO, once, repeated 12–14 days later) is recommended. After the second of each 2-day fenbendazole treatment or each dose of ivermectin, the animals should be moved into a newly established environment to prevent reinfection from free-living life stages. Some reactions to fenbendazole have been reported, so animals should be monitored closely and treatment discontinued if necessary.
Infectious Diseases of Amphibians: Amphibians: Merck Veterinary Manual

[elly]

I think the handling may be unavoidably stressful for them, but at least you can make sure there are plenty of places to hide in the QT tanks.

[Bee]

Hi, thanks for the posts.
will have to do the trouble in the enclosure post tomorrow as its late here but I didn't want to not say anything.

I'm not sure why the vet wanted to wait either, he said they look healthy inside mouths and on skin and such, he said let the medication for the protozoa work (Ididn't get the name of the protozoa or the medicine as to be honest I was so focused on the lung worm part, he just said excess protozoa) He said that nothing should happen to them with the lung worm in this time so he wasn't worried. He said to keep feeding them and phone in 2 weeks with weights, I did this and he didn't get back in touch, so I now phone each week with the weights in the hope they are "heavy enough" Bigger one is now 22grams and smaller one 14 grams.They are both putting weight on and as active as they have always been.

1)We bought them from a garden center that has a reptile corner.
2) Nobody was sure on age, although we had seen them at least one of them 3 months earlier, he is croaking so I guess he is maybe around a year old as I read thats when they start croaking.
3)I would say they were around 2 inches now, they have not grown that much in length, seems to be just fatter and more filled out.

When picking the frogs up to weigh them I wear latex gloves (the blue ones the vets use) and I close my hand around them. They tend to wriggle but not jump, then I place them on a digital scale (no bowl, as this is what the vet did) they do sit on the scales then will walk off and when I try to get them back in the tank they climb up my arm as though they don't want to go in.

I'm more worried that now they are getting so sick/scared of being picked up that if you even look in the tank they will go to hide which they never did before. they were always very relaxed and would sit looking at you.

[irThumper]

No problem, that's what we're here for

I'm not at all certain on your vet and the lungworm thing... it doesn't make sense to me, especially since he said they were otherwise healthy...?? He didn't get back to you? That's not good... your frogs are absolutely big enough to treat. I would definitely ask him what the protozoans were that he treated for, what the medication was they were given, and how many oocysts or protozoa he actually saw in the test. If your frogs had Giardia I do believe that Panacur is commonly used for that (yet Panacur will not help Cociddiosis) and thus will also be effective against lungworm, though Ivermectin may prove more effective for the nematoads (lungworm). Ask for specific details, and ask to see the test results, it is your right as a paying client of his and will help you better to track the health of your frogs in the long run. I think I would stop weighing them every week for now, especially if that vet hasn't said anything further about worming them-- you need to come right out and ask him about all that, it's not right that he's putting you off and making you wait and worry with no explaination as to why, and he's causing more stress for you and your frogs. No need to weigh them every week unless you are actively dosing them with something and need to keep up with the proper dosing amt per weight of the frogs.

By the way, Did he give the frogs the treatment for the protozoans or did you do that at home?

Now for the handling issue... as long as you aren't chasing them around the cage, or making grabs at them, then you are doing it the right way (being careful not to squeeze of course). I use a bowl to weight mine in too as it is safer and keeps them a bit calmer (again depending on the frog). What time of day are you weighing them? It's kind of a toss up as to when to do so, because they may be slower when they are asleep, but jarring them awake could be more of a shock, where as if you do it when they are wind awake you might have more of a chase on your hands. I would start handling them just as they have first awoken for the night... they are no longer sleeping but aren't quite in full swing yet. Just scoop up one gently in both hands, while still in the cage, and hold him for a few seconds and then release him-- do not release him while he is struggling, but do not hold him so long or so tightly that he panics. Do the same thing with the other frog, then feed them IMMEDIATELY afterwards. Don't do anything else to them, leave them completely alone after this. (You might want to do things like cleaning and water changing a half hour or an hour beforehand so they don't equate those things (if it stressed them out) with the holding-- you want the frogs to equate the holding with the feeding, which is something positive for them. I would do this before every feeding, holding them a few seconds longer each time and releasing them when they are still calm then giving their dinner (make sure your gloves have been dampened with dechlorinated water ahead of time). If they get to the point where they will sit calmly in your open hand you can try offering them a bug treat while you are holding them. Some frogs will take food from you this way, some won't (two of mine regularly do) but it further reinforces that the hand is good and will do no harm. This isn't as easy when you have to force feed them medication however, but if that is done gently and correctly the frogs will be less stressed if they are used to being held.

Hope this helps. Looking forward to reading your other replies when you get the questions answered

[Bee]

1----what 'kind' of frog is it ( what species) Whites tree frog
2----please include a photo of the frog
3----Please include a photo of the frog's current enclosure
4----size of enclosure ( W" x D" x H" ) 45x45x60 (60 is height) also these measurements in cm not inches, 18x18x24 in inches
5----# on inhabitants - ( if there is another frog --- is there a size difference ? ) whites tree frog , alittle smaller
6----has or was the frog kept with a different species or with any other tank mate both frogs bought together from same tank in shop
7----is there a new tank mate----was the new tank mate quarantined no
8----what is the typical humidity level 55-65
9----what temperature is maintained 27-28 degrees celcius
10---what is, specifically, being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure 2 heat mats on back of tank, exo-terra desert type.
11---describe the enclosure lighting ( very specifically) 1 5.0 exoterra repti glow uv light, on for 12hrs a day
12---describe enclosure maintenance ( water changes, cleaning etc) water changed everyday while they are sleeping, using reptisafe and standing for 24hrs. they rarely poo in the water, so poos picked up from substrate/plants daily.
13---what kind of water is used
-----for misting tap water, treated with repti safe and stood for 24hrs
-----for the frog's soaking dish as above
-----is de-chlorinator used / what brand repti safe
14---material(s) used for substrate - be very specific eco earth coco substrate, dried blocks that grow in water
15---enclosure set up: 1 large piece of cork bark cover alot of tank, 1 java wood branch, 1 large water bowl, 2 live plants.
-----if recent - describe how the enclosure was cleaned whn first bought very hot water and same again to wipe down glass when it ges grubby
-----plants( live or artificial) if artificial plants are used are they plastic or fabric a real bromeliad, a real flamingo flower, 3 silk plants that hang that they sleep behind
-----describe wood, bark , and background materials eco earth
16---when is the last time the frog ate yesterday
17---have you found poop lately yes if not always everyday, then definately every other.
18---how often is the frog fed daily
19---what size feeder is given medium locusts
20---what other feeders are used as treats once a month they have 2/3 waxworms each, also eat the woodlice put in the tank for cleaning
21---what is the frog's main food source locusts
22---do feeders roam free in the enclosure or is the frog bowl fed roam free but any not eaten taken out he next morning and put back in their tub to eat/drink themselves
23---vitamins - what brand and how often calcium and multivitamin in one, brand:Advanced nutircal by komodo (every other day)
24---calcium - what brand and how often as above
25---was the frog without calcium for any period of time (not since being brought home, and was told shop dusted food.
26---approximate age of the frog larger one croaking so both possibly 1 year or less.
27---how long have you owned the frog 2months
28---who cared for the frog before you staff in shop
29---is the frog wild caught or captive bred captive
30---how often the frog is handled -- are gloves used ( what kind of gloves) once a week since starting to weigh, otherwise never, wet latex gloves used.
31---is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area kept in living room, only 2 of us live here, no visitors.
30---has or was the frog properly quarantined (yes or no) no brought them both home together from same tank and staright into their tank.
-----for how long
32---has the frog been treated with any medication: yes
-----for what excess protozoa
-----name of medication unsure but calling the vet Monday to find out.
-----for how long one dose
-----what dose unsure will find out
-----was medication prescribed by a herp vet yes

Posting this here as I didn't want to make a new thread and confuse anyone. Will try and get some pictures up, especially some of when we first brought them home to now as size difference is noticeable (well to me anyway )

[Bee]

Also just wanted to add that all live plants taken out of original soil and pots, washed off completely in very hot water, replanted in eco earth substrate.

[irThumper]

Everything sounds pretty good to me! I'd switch to powder free latex free nitrile or vinyl gloves though, just in case the frogs may be sensitive to latex like some people are.

Very interested in seeing what the vet has to say about things regarding the treatments they've had and the lungworm-- don't let him brush anything off either, you're paying good money and are entitled to complete disclosure and record copies on what is being done, has been done, or is planned to be done to your frogs.

[Bee]

Well I phoned the vets this week with the last weights and the vet we see was off but they were going to let him know this coming Monday so fingers crossed.
Also the smaller one-Bee started croaking last night The larger one Ninja has always croaked, then last night he got a little tiny response. Bee has been very shy all week then when I came in from work last night he was out and I thought it was it was Ninja as he was so big, but then I saw Ninja (he is very much set on staying brown whereas Bee is mostly green) on another leaf next to him.

They both seem to go shy (hardly come out) and not eat so much when they are shedding, they pop out for a soak in the water bowl but seem to have no appetite for a few days, then the next time you see them they look bigger.