Nose rub and crazy behavior worsening!

[Frogger00]

Is it just me, or do your whites go completely crazy at night? Both of my frogs are constantly rubbing their faces into the corners of the tank, jumping, falling and croaking at/on everything. Now my one frogs nose has been rubbed to the point of breaking the skin. I've put some original Neosporin on it, it's too early to tell if it's helping. Why do they do this? It seems like they want out, but when I take them out they just sit there. Any opinions or advice?


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[teslas intern]

My guess would be there is some need that is not being satisfied. What are your temps and humidity like night and day? What and how often are you feeding them? Do they have a clean water bowl? Do they have enough light during the day? And do they have good places to hide? Without seeing your setup, I would have to guess they need more hiding places, as trying to escape means does not feel secure. Might be other factors like noise etc. Perhaps someone else can offer more specific advice.

[Tasmaster]

I would run some experiments on the variables mentioned by Scott^. See if changing humidity, lighting, noise, etc. See if changing anything helps. Do they have enough stuff to climb on in there? Maybe they are bored. Dumpies are active at night, and without enough things to do like climb, hunt, proper mating conditions of they are a pair, they could get easily restless. These frogs are a lot more pet-like than most other tree frogs, so you should treat them that way too, and give them sufficient attention. My dumpies are as happy as can be, as I handle them and hand feed them everyday. Heck, my adult perches on my shoulder for sometimes hours at a time while I do my homework! He's even "potty trained" to get it all out when I run him under the filtered water faucet over the sink. So funny!

[Frogger00]

Here, I'll just answer the questions.

1----what 'kind' of frog is it ( what species) whites tree frog
2----please include a photo of the frog
3----Please include a photo of the frog's current enclosure don't have one, will get one later
4----size of enclosure ( W" x D" x H" ) 24"x18"x18"
5----# on inhabitants - ( if there is another frog --- is there a size difference ? ) 2. Half an inch size difference.
6----has or was the frog kept with a different species or with any other tank mate just another dumpy
7----is there a new tank mate----was the new tank mate quarantined no new mates
8----what is the typical humidity level 50%
9----what temperature is maintained high 80's provided with a cool area of 70.
10---what is, specifically, being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure heat lamps
11---describe the enclosure lighting ( very specifically) I use a day lamp and a night lamp.
12---describe enclosure maintenance ( water changes, cleaning etc) daily water changes and poop pickup if needed, misting
13---what kind of water is used
-----for misting treated
-----for the frog's soaking dish treated
-----is de-chlorinator used / what brand all of my water is treated.
14---material(s) used for substrate - be very specific coco husk
15---enclosure set up:
-----if recent - describe how the enclosure was cleaned everything taken out, wiped down with warm water, materials cleaned with water and soap.
-----plants( live or artificial) if artificial plants are used are they plastic or fabric fabric and plastic
-----describe wood, bark , and background materials two branches up high, another big branch on ground. Mushroom ledge, tree fern panels
16---when is the last time the frog ate 4 days ago
17---have you found poop lately yes, yesterday
18---how often is the frog fed every 4 days
19---what size feeder is given 2 week old crickets
20---what other feeders are used as treats hornworms, meal worms.
21---what is the frog's main food source crickets
22---do feeders roam free in the enclosure or is the frog bowl fed bowl fed.
23---vitamins - what brand and how often flukers Orange 3
24---calcium - what brand and how often same as above
25---was the frog without calcium for any period of time no
26---approximate age of the frog year and a half
27---how long have you owned the frog year
28---who cared for the frog before you petland.
29---is the frog wild caught or captive bred not sure.
30---how often the frog is handled -- are gloves used ( what kind of gloves) maybe a couple times a week for no longer then 10 minutes
31---is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area high at times,but generally low traffic.
30---has or was the frog properly quarantined (yes or no) no
-----for how long
32---has the frog been treated with any medication:no
-----for what
-----name of medication
-----for how long
-----what dose
-----was medication prescribed by a herp vet




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[Frogger00]

I would run some experiments on the variables mentioned by Scott^. See if changing humidity, lighting, noise, etc. See if changing anything helps. Do they have enough stuff to climb on in there? Maybe they are bored. Dumpies are active at night, and without enough things to do like climb, hunt, proper mating conditions of they are a pair, they could get easily restless. These frogs are a lot more pet-like than most other tree frogs, so you should treat them that way too, and give them sufficient attention. My dumpies are as happy as can be, as I handle them and hand feed them everyday. Heck, my adult perches on my shoulder for sometimes hours at a time while I do my homework! He's even "potty trained" to get it all out when I run him under the filtered water faucet over the sink. So funny!

So I took your advice, when he started jumping around and pushing to get out, I took him out, gave him some worms and he chilled on my hand for a while. Even my other guy who is a bit nervous was pushing to get out,so I handled him for a few minutes as well. It certainly helped. They are still behaving pretty wild, but instead are jumping on their branches versus trying to escape. I'm also working on getting a taller tank, at least 3 feet high, 4' if I can find one. I want to make it a "busy" cage so they have lots to do. I'm also going to start feeding every day over every 4 days. Thanks for the help!


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[Tasmaster]

So I took your advice, when he started jumping around and pushing to get out, I took him out, gave him some worms and he chilled on my hand for a while. Even my other guy who is a bit nervous was pushing to get out,so I handled him for a few minutes as well. It certainly helped. They are still behaving pretty wild, but instead are jumping on their branches versus trying to escape. I'm also working on getting a taller tank, at least 3 feet high, 4' if I can find one. I want to make it a "busy" cage so they have lots to do. I'm also going to start feeding every day over every 4 days. Thanks for the help!


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Glad I could help!! If you have any more questions I'd be more than willing to try to help

[deranged chipmunk]

Frogs are not dogs or cats. They do not require human interaction to survive. If the frog is rubbing it's nose trying to escape it's enclosure, it is because something is not right in the enclosure and needs to be corrected. HANDLING YPUR FROG IS NOT A REMEDY FOR THIS! Happiness and companionship are human emotions and you shouldn't think that frogs share these. Sure, white's tolerate handling more than other frogs, but that doesn't mean they like it, or desire it.
Figure out what is wrong with the enclosure first and foremost and correct that. Then the frog will stop trying to escape and nose runs will be a thing of the past.


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[Tasmaster]

Frogs are not dogs or cats. They do not require human interaction to survive. If the frog is rubbing it's nose trying to escape it's enclosure, it is because something is not right in the enclosure and needs to be corrected. HANDLING YPUR FROG IS NOT A REMEDY FOR THIS! Happiness and companionship are human emotions and you shouldn't think that frogs share these. Sure, white's tolerate handling more than other frogs, but that doesn't mean they like it, or desire it.
Figure out what is wrong with the enclosure first and foremost and correct that. Then the frog will stop trying to escape and nose runs will be a thing of the past.


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

White's tree frogs are highly social and are relatively large tree frogs. They are used to roaming and hunting in gigantic old growth rain forests. Keeping them in a cage all of the time without any interact with the outside-of-the-cage world is cruel. The same can be said for all caged pets, however I think it is definitely more applicable to the more intelligent and larger tree frogs. I was not implying that handling the frogs would solve the problem, in fact excessive handling can be very detrimental and can even induce lethal stress levels. I was simply saying that boredom may be playing a role there, especially after seeing that Frogger00 was previously only feeding every four days!! The only argument you presented that I would like to strike down is the statement that: "Happiness and companionship are human emotions and you shouldn't think that frogs share these. " That is so beyond false, and was actually rather offended to read that. Frogs especially are highly social and intelligent for what they are, and I am in fact certain that they experience happiness and rejoice in companionship (though I do doubt they particularly enjoy human companioinship!). Who are to say that frogs don't experience these things?

Just things to think about

[deranged chipmunk]

Show scientific proof that these frogs show these emotions please.

I am very familiar with white's, having kept them for years prior to keeping darts. The are not social, but solitary animals. The only time they actively seek others of their kind is to mate. They also do not just live in dense rainforests, but also on the semi arid margins at the edge of the forest.

"Keeping them in a cage all the time without any interaction with the outside-of-the-cage world is cruel". I am assuming this is YOUR opinion and not based on fact. The fact of the matter is, our "outside-of-the-cage" world is truly unnatural for them and adds stress. Provided they are given the proper conditions to live in, they will live a perfectly healthy existence, inside their enclosure.

Also, feeding every 4 days is not an issue. I fed mine weekly and I also know many people who do so as well. Feeding every day is a good routine for US. In their natural habitat, white's will go extended periods of time without eating during the dry season, when food is not as plentiful.


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[LilyPad]

It's called anthropomorphism and is not helpful when determining care of a frog. They travel distances and large areas in their natural environment because they need to do so for survival, either finding food, escaping predators, or finding mates (once they have gone through a weather cycle that most do not put their frogs through without the intention of breeding them.) When they are given everything they need, it's not necessary to move over large areas and they can be quite healthy in a proper sized enclosure.

[Lija]

Okay, this is ridiculous and it needs to stop. Frogs as well as all exotic pets are look, but don't touch pets. That is as simple as that. It was never the case and it will never be. They don't feel like we do, frankly neither animals feel like we do, for human feeling and emotions is responsible our brain cortex, so elaborate in humans, not so much in dogs in cats. That is not an opinion , that is a anatomical fact.
In frogs or other exotic animals cortex is not wrinkly, it's flat, their brain is very small in comparison and controls only reflexes and physiological functions.

some people tend to humanize their exotic pets, while it is human to get attached like that, your pet won't ever be able to return it, frankly your pet would never care who is his owner.

having said that some exotic pets can develop certain reflexes, like getting used to the way we feed or the place we feed them, things like that... I can go on and on, so to summarize. never assume your exotic pet likes or need your company, but some can tolerate it to extend.

[Frogger00]

Thanks for all the help! I agree they don't have emotions like ours, but I do think my frogs are bored. Taking them out to let them explore did calm them a bit. Not for long, but it did help. As I said I will start feeding everyday instead of every 4 days, just for a change in routine.


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[irThumper]

I will sneak in to add something I read about the WTFs being "communal frogs" (when I find my source I will cite it). Apparently they do tend to hang around together in their native lands... it may be only due to food sources in a particular area, or because hibernating in mass groups tends to help conserve moisture (rather than a "social thing") but they have been proven not to be exclusively solitary. Going to go look for that info source now...!

[irThumper]

Too tired to look more (2:43 a.m. here!) but the book by John Coborn mentions communal hibernation of these guys... he also says that while they can tolerate handling better than some species that it is still a good practice to handle them as infrequently as possible. I usually only handle my guys when there is necessity to do so, such as moving them to clean, feed, weigh/measure or medicate. I'm perfectly happy to observe them safely in their homes.