Email sent to Steven at Big Apple Herps

[Jeff Kennedy]

For those of you that have been following my recent thread about receiving a "Dwarf" labled as a "Giant" from Big Apple, I sent the following email. I will keep you posted on the outcome...

Steven & Staff,

This email is sent in regards to a problem I have with a recent purchase that I was just made aware of over the holiday weekend. Although I am sure that Steven is familiar with me, as I have spent alot of time on the phone with him over the past two weeks, let me provide just a little history. I contacted you guys, via telephone on 06/22 in regards to the Giant Pixie Frogs (FOUR INCH Beauties) which are advertised on your site for $129.99. I wanted to be sure that I was getting a true "Giant" as that was the only kind that I had interest in. A female answered the phone. When I told her that I had questions in regards to the species and sex of the frog that I was purchasing, she transferred me to a gentleman (Steven). Because I believe that not only the bad should be mentioned but also the good, I will tell you that Steven seemed top notch to deal with over the phone. He assured me that the frog I was purchasing was in fact a true "Giant" and more specifically, I would be getting a male because all the frogs that you recieve from the "farm" are males because they keep the females for breeding sake. Steven further advised me that Big Apple is one of the few vendors whom can get there hands on these and that since March, has sold around 90 or so Pixie's. He told me that I would be purchasing a baby/juvenile and that they were in fact already measuring at 4-4.5". He told me that this guy would be around 10" or so within the year. I was estatic. I recieved my shipment of the Pixie and the Golden Mantella that I ordered without a problem. I was a little concerned about my Pixie's overall brown coloration as opposed to the olive green they usually exibit but having never owned one, just assumed that he was in a stage of growth and that it would all come together with time. I then went on the following and made another purchase with your company on 06/29, again speaking with Steven on the phone about the particular animals that I was purchasing. These animals too were received without a problem and it was a positive experience. So much in fact that I contacted Steven yet again on Friday, to set up another shipment for Tuesday morning. Over this past weekend I unearthed some disturbing information on some of the Frog Forums on-line. When researching Giant African Bullfrogs, I came across an article from another customer whom purchased a "Giant" from you as well, but was later informed that it was a Dwarf. The story that he got over the phone was the same as mine and his frog looked identical to mine as well. After doing a little research and speaking with several experts in the field of true "Giants", it was unanimous that I in fact purchased a full grown "Dwarf" from you guys which you falsely advertise as "Giants". One of the most disturbing aspects of it all is that you attach a picture of an actual baby "Giant" on your website, however you sell "Dwarfs". I am trying to be optimistic here and give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe you too are getting scammed by these "farms" that you are purchasing from. I also bring this to your attention in regards to the other 89 people whom you have sold these to over the last several months labeling these as "Giants" when in fact they are "Dwarfs". It is just a matter of time before these people too figure out that they didn't recieve what they bought as there frogs are never going to grow. I have faith that you will do the right thing and refund me my money so that I can still walk away from this with a positive attitude about your company. Hopefully this is just a mishap on behalf of the "farms" to you and you can get this situation rectified and compensate the many people whom paid a premium price for something that they did not receiive. I know that I am not your biggest customer by now means, but the $500 of my hard-earned money that I have chose to spend with your company over the last two weeks should count for something. If that doesn't, fortunately for me, I am in law enforcement with connections on a federal level that deal solely in internet frauds. I am also an active member on several of the top Frog Forums on the internet. I'm sure that within a week, I can have the names and contact info of several other unsuspecting customers whom recieved the same "Dwarfs" when they paid a premium for a "Giant". Please. Do the right thing here.

Respectively,

Jeff Kennedy

[Deku]

Thats great and all that you stood up for yourself. But you shouldnt have made that threat there. It may start something.... Just saying, I have delt in the past with threats lets just put it at that. And t hreatening someone over the internet isnt the best thing. Also I dont know if these people will give you their contact info... Just saying... Not really safe for them either to be giving it out.

[Jeff Kennedy]

There is no threat in the email that I have sent to them. I am trying to be as optimistic as I can thinking that maybe they are in fact being mislead from these "farms" they are purchasing from. That said, I have read testimonials from other folks whom have had problems in the past with Big Apple, where they are basically told that unless they receive notification from an expert in the field, they will not issue a refund. I have the highest of hopes that Steven will make this right as aside from this, he has been great to deal with. If it is not a glitch and he is aware that they are actually selling "dwarfs" as "giants" because they can be purchased cheaper and there is more of a demand for "giants", then that is fraud and I will exercise every right I have as a consumer and a law abiding citizen, to make sure that this doesn't happen to anymore unsuspecting buyers. There is no threat in that.

[John]

I hear you Jeff but I'm with Kevin - that does come across as a threat and I think you should have held that back until you needed it, say after an initial negative response. However, best of luck to you in this.

If you want a true giant, I recommend you keep an eye on kingsnake for the time being - I am sure thefrogranch.com (the main US breeder of these frogs) has a crop coming along any time now and they'll start popping up. You might even be able to find a local supplier, such as a pet shop, so you can see the frog in person. With these frogs, either you can't find a single one or there are plenty available. Right now we are in a period of the former kind. I wouldn't buy an adult male if I were you - just buy a couple of youngsters (which should cost you no more than $30 each retail) and you'll know if you have a male within 3 months, and a male should pass 6 inches (15 cm) in 6 or 7 months. I like to buy a youngster now and then when I see one, and raise it up for kicks.

[Jeff Kennedy]

I appreciate the info John. I will check into that. From what I have read online this weekend, Big Apple isn't very return/refund friendly. I feel like I have maintained an equal stance at this point by still praising how they have handled everything else aside from this and that the other 3 examples of frogs that I have purchased from them have been just as described. I am optimistic that Steven will take care of this but wanted to also communicate that I am displeased with this and that I don't plan on just laying down on this. If it is handled appropriately, then I will conduct a follow up post praising them as up to this point they have been nice to deal with. If they just blow me off and I am out $200, then I have the luxury of contacting one of my former co-workers whom deals solely in internet fraud. None of that is intended as threats. If they are in fact falsely advertising these things to unsuspecting buyers (myself included) then it needs to stop. I don't see anything wrong with protecting other buyers and if I have some tools on my belt or some connections that can assist me in this manner, then I don't see anything wrong in exercising them. I don't feel as if I have been negative about any of this. The following was Kevin's reply to my original thread on the topic. I don't understand how I am being perceived as threatening or whatnot. That wasn't my intent. I just wanted them to know that I wasn't going to take any of this lying down. Kevin's original reply... "Hmm well I THINK you should talk to the company first (bigapple herps). At first if they are unwilling to make a trade back. Tell them it is against the law to FALSE ADVERTISE. Tell them if they dont return your money back that you WILL SUE their *****. Keep pressing them. Keep calling them, ask for the head person. If they ask "what proof you got?" , you tell them you know alot of people who got scammed by them, and that they will be witnesses. That they even got receipts too. Then just talk to your credit card company."
__________________

[Deku]

I understand how you feel towards them. I feel the same, to me they are like turtlesale.com. Both sites are TERRIBLE to buy from. I knew a friend who got jipped from both. Lets put it like this, they are a "big business", meaning you should watch your words around them. They too have lawyers, they could come up with some bs saying you are harrassing/threatening them. You have to go by the rules, not just rules of the law, but rules of the society. If that makes any sense.
First you warn them that they sold you the wrong item- Nicely and ask for a return/refund.

Second- Should they not comply, you tell them you have proof. You take photographic evidence of the site/page of where you purchased it. You get evidence to pile up:
1)Testimonials
2)Photos of a dwarf, and photos of a true giant.
3)E-mails. anything that is helpful.

Thirdly-Then you make threats should they not comply, but of course REASONABLE threats. Don't leave yourself open for any lawsuits or loopholes. Remember that, and think like a lawyer cunniving, devious, sneaky little rat(no offense to any lawyers out there). Show the person you mean business, and that you know what you are talking about. Be confident, but dont be cocky.

Four-Should they STILL not comply, show the police evidence, and make a lawsuit. Remember to keep AS MUCH EVIDENCE as posible, record calls, save and print emails, anything you have.



Overall you also need to remember we are human, if we feel threatened we will show our fangs. Also the fact you dont mess with a person unless you ABSOLUTELY need to. My aunt is a police officer, so is my friends parent. My uncle is a lawyer, and my friend is studying to be one. So I know a thing or two. Just saying, be friendly above all, and avoid any threats.

Good luck to you man. I hate these type of people, and for the record... These guys mostlikely know that these are dwarfs. I mean do you think YOU are the only one who probably complains to them? If 80people complain to a person about being mis-sold an item. Don't you think they would catch on by now? This is why I prefer expos over these.

[Deku]

I appreciate the info John. I will check into that. From what I have read online this weekend, Big Apple isn't very return/refund friendly. I feel like I have maintained an equal stance at this point by still praising how they have handled everything else aside from this and that the other 3 examples of frogs that I have purchased from them have been just as described. I am optimistic that Steven will take care of this but wanted to also communicate that I am displeased with this and that I don't plan on just laying down on this. If it is handled appropriately, then I will conduct a follow up post praising them as up to this point they have been nice to deal with. If they just blow me off and I am out $200, then I have the luxury of contacting one of my former co-workers whom deals solely in internet fraud. None of that is intended as threats. If they are in fact falsely advertising these things to unsuspecting buyers (myself included) then it needs to stop. I don't see anything wrong with protecting other buyers and if I have some tools on my belt or some connections that can assist me in this manner, then I don't see anything wrong in exercising them. I don't feel as if I have been negative about any of this. The following was Kevin's reply to my original thread on the topic. I don't understand how I am being perceived as threatening or whatnot. That wasn't my intent. I just wanted them to know that I wasn't going to take any of this lying down. Kevin's original reply... "Hmm well I THINK you should talk to the company first (bigapple herps). At first if they are unwilling to make a trade back. Tell them it is against the law to FALSE ADVERTISE. Tell them if they dont return your money back that you WILL SUE their *****. Keep pressing them. Keep calling them, ask for the head person. If they ask "what proof you got?" , you tell them you know alot of people who got scammed by them, and that they will be witnesses. That they even got receipts too. Then just talk to your credit card company."
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You threatened to sue, and mentioned you have contacts. It wasnt that necessary right there. Not only that but they could prepare themselves on court should you sue them. Meaning they could easily find a loophole. Again something you dont want to happen if you are trying to sue, or get something out of it. Just saying. The law can be one thing. But not everyone who does not comply with the law will successfully get sued. Again, you need to be more tact-full when it comes to dealing with a big business. Its like going to a bank and saying hey I like you, but I will sue your *** if you dont help me out.

By law they have to do somethings. But they can very well find a loop hole. Its a possibility, and then what will you do? Tell them its not fair? These people(big business) dont give two hoots about anyone except money. Again Iam just saying. Its a recommendation. Not trying to pick on you, or show you up. Just trying to be nice and caring to tell you what I think and some facts.
Again good luck.

[Jeff Kennedy]

I appreciate the reply man. I still maintain that nothing that I implied was meant to be a threat. I have a direct pipeline to a former co-worker that is a federal agent now, dealing solely with internet fraud. If they plan on just blowing me off as they have done to others apparently, then I have no qualms with reporting it and seeking the advice from the top of the food chain.

[Deku]

I appreciate the reply man. I still maintain that nothing that I implied was meant to be a threat. I have a direct pipeline to a former co-worker that is a federal agent now, dealing solely with internet fraud. If they plan on just blowing me off as they have done to others apparently, then I have no qualms with reporting it and seeking the advice from the top of the food chain.

Thats great, but you shouldnt advertise to them that you have something against them and also a way to screw them over. Because they will think of a way to counteract it. Trust me on this one, it happens. Just be very selective of words. Thats all Iam saying.

[Jeff Kennedy]

I never threatened to sue them. I quoted the original comment that you posted yesterday on the thread where I sought the advice of the forums experts. You stated that and then replied to my email that I was threatening and shouldn't have been. Go back and read your post.

[Jeff Kennedy]

I never had intentions nor mentioned sueing. You brought that up in my initial thread that denounced in fact that I received a dwarf when I paid for a giant. Trying to sue over $200 is pointless. If they tell me to go to hell tomorrow and not help me, then I will run it past a higher authority since it is false and or fraudulent and I will leave testimonials on every frog and reptile website, curtailng my experience. There is no harm or no foul in seeking justice or sharing my experience with others. All I did was send them money for something that I didn't get. I'm not the bad guy here.

[Deku]

Yes I did. But I didnt say do it as a first resort. Thats pretty much as a second or third resort.

[John]

Alright guys, there's no point in debating it - the train has already left the station. Let's leave it be and see how Jeff gets on.

[Jeff Kennedy]

Wanted to pass along the email I received from Big Apple this morning as I said from the beginning that I plan on reporting my progress on this matter. Below is there response to my original email and my response to them. I am still hoping that they will do the right thing however it looks like they may just shrug me off do to how "impersonal" the email is.

Dear Sir,

The customer you are speaking about was BANNED from the forum you are referring to and if you look at the comments only one person thought it was not a giant and others said it was.

The frog you were sent is in FACT a giant Pixie frog and is NOT a dwarf.

We have sold many dwarfs and many giants and we know the difference between the two.

Also, all our customers were told that what they were getting was 4" Pixie frogs and that is why the price is so high.
Our price for baby pixie frogs when we had them 8 months ago was $24.99. I can't understand why you would want a baby for $129.99?

In any event, as I said look at the forum again and you will see that the person was BANNED from the forum website and that someone also said that it was definitely a Giant.

It should also be known that we have forwarded that person's information to our legal source to see if his posting that statement publicly is an actionable wrong.

Sincerely,

Andy
Big Apple Pet Supply



Hi Steven & Staff,

I am not sure the person whom you might be referring to or what website for that matter but let me delve in a little bit further. While perusing a frog website Sunday afternoon (FrogForum) I came across a thread that was all too familiar. In this thread, you guys (Big Apple) basically get called out for selling the author of the thread an advertised "Giant" Pyxie however he received a "Dwarf". In his attached photos, I saw an image that looked just like the "Giant" Pyxie that I received from you and he also included an all to familiar story in regards to the farm where you guys receive them from and the males only being released, etc. After discovering this, I grew concerned. Having never actually owned a Pyxie myself, I sought the advice of experts in the field. People that have saw numerous examples of froglets, juveniles and adults alike. I registered on the website so that I could post and attached images of the frog that I received from you. It was unanimous that the frog in which I received was actually a "Dwarf". This was very disheartening to me as I have had such a positive experience with you guys up to this point. I even boasted your name and my experience so much with my local pet shop, that they was even considering starting to order there reptiles and amphibians from you. Perusing the different sites further over the weekend, I started to read more and more bad testimonials pertaining to your company. I still stayed true to my values and when I decided to go public with my photos, still gave you the benefit of the doubt. That maybe in fact you were being mislead by your supplier and what not. It is so troubling to me that when I placed this order, I spent probably 30-45 minutes on the phone with Stephen discussing this frog and trying to find additional frogs that I could purchase to ship at the same time. All I had to go by was the picture of an actual baby "Giant" Pyxie that you have on your site, and your word that what I was going to receive, was in fact what I paid for. It seems that that was not the case here. I had hoped that you would have done the right thing but I have better things to do then try to pull teeth. Like I said in the first email, I know that my measly $500 that I have spent over the last couple weeks isn't keeping your doors open, but it should count for something. $150-$175 invested in one animal is a big deal to me and when I decide to spend that kind of money, I want to actually receive what I am paying for. I started an order with Steven Friday afternoon and was awaiting this afternoons order to come in to see if possibly you guys received anything else that I was interested in. I will hold true to my word and since I committed to something on Friday, I still intend on purchasing later today. I will call and talk to Steven later about having this order fullfilled. Below is a link to my thread which includes many experts in the field chiming in as well as phot's of "Dwarfs" that look just like the frog I received from you.

Sincerely,

Jeff Kennedy

[Jeff Kennedy]

Another update...

Just got off the phone with Steven and am feeling very optimistic at this point. He is currently checking with his supplier and some of the other reptile/amphibian dealers in regards to what in fact is going on with the shipments that they are receiving. He has viewed the threads relating to this on this board and I believe that he see's in fact that there could be a problem with these guys that are being offered as "Giants". As usual, he was very polite and seemed eager to get to the bottom of this situation for me. I am feeling pretty confident now that we will get together on this.

[John]

Either that or he's going to threaten me with a law suit (which he can try if he wants - this forum is in the UK).

Good luck though and thanks for keeping us updated.

[Meatball]

I am in the same boat as you Jeff, only realizing it after looking over the previous few threads on this forum. I am still unsure on how I want to go about this, obviously I want just compensation but I've had my frog since May. Please keep updating what happens because I feel like I might have to be making some calls myself sooner rather than later.

[Jeff Kennedy]

Hi Meatball. Did you order from Big Apple or another vendor? I just got off the phone with Steven again. He contacted me just to touch base that he had contacted his vendor in Zambawa (sp?) and they assured that these are in fact the Giant African bullfrogs that they are labeled. I beg to differ as I have poured over information after information the last several days and can tell that what is being offered as "Giants" do not even exhibit the same colors or patterns as true "Giants". I don't doubt for a minute that they are in fact "African" bullfrogs, they just aren't the "Giant" that I and everybody else that purchased one thought that they were getting. I can now say after conducting endless hours of research that in fact my guy is not the "Giant" that I wanted. In almost a month of owning him, he hasn't grown nose to bent, he has however put on size across his back as he has maintained eating about 25-30 large crickets every couple of days. My guy should be growing more then that I would think. Kudos though to Big Apple for keeping me updating and letting me know that they are trying to get to the bottom of this. I am still hopeful that they will do the right thing.

[Kurt]

Zimbabwe.

[Jeff Kennedy]

That's it! Thanks Kurt.