Email sent to Steven at Big Apple Herps

[Jeff Kennedy]

For those of you that have been following my recent thread about receiving a "Dwarf" labled as a "Giant" from Big Apple, I sent the following email. I will keep you posted on the outcome...

Steven & Staff,

This email is sent in regards to a problem I have with a recent purchase that I was just made aware of over the holiday weekend. Although I am sure that Steven is familiar with me, as I have spent alot of time on the phone with him over the past two weeks, let me provide just a little history. I contacted you guys, via telephone on 06/22 in regards to the Giant Pixie Frogs (FOUR INCH Beauties) which are advertised on your site for $129.99. I wanted to be sure that I was getting a true "Giant" as that was the only kind that I had interest in. A female answered the phone. When I told her that I had questions in regards to the species and sex of the frog that I was purchasing, she transferred me to a gentleman (Steven). Because I believe that not only the bad should be mentioned but also the good, I will tell you that Steven seemed top notch to deal with over the phone. He assured me that the frog I was purchasing was in fact a true "Giant" and more specifically, I would be getting a male because all the frogs that you recieve from the "farm" are males because they keep the females for breeding sake. Steven further advised me that Big Apple is one of the few vendors whom can get there hands on these and that since March, has sold around 90 or so Pixie's. He told me that I would be purchasing a baby/juvenile and that they were in fact already measuring at 4-4.5". He told me that this guy would be around 10" or so within the year. I was estatic. I recieved my shipment of the Pixie and the Golden Mantella that I ordered without a problem. I was a little concerned about my Pixie's overall brown coloration as opposed to the olive green they usually exibit but having never owned one, just assumed that he was in a stage of growth and that it would all come together with time. I then went on the following and made another purchase with your company on 06/29, again speaking with Steven on the phone about the particular animals that I was purchasing. These animals too were received without a problem and it was a positive experience. So much in fact that I contacted Steven yet again on Friday, to set up another shipment for Tuesday morning. Over this past weekend I unearthed some disturbing information on some of the Frog Forums on-line. When researching Giant African Bullfrogs, I came across an article from another customer whom purchased a "Giant" from you as well, but was later informed that it was a Dwarf. The story that he got over the phone was the same as mine and his frog looked identical to mine as well. After doing a little research and speaking with several experts in the field of true "Giants", it was unanimous that I in fact purchased a full grown "Dwarf" from you guys which you falsely advertise as "Giants". One of the most disturbing aspects of it all is that you attach a picture of an actual baby "Giant" on your website, however you sell "Dwarfs". I am trying to be optimistic here and give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe you too are getting scammed by these "farms" that you are purchasing from. I also bring this to your attention in regards to the other 89 people whom you have sold these to over the last several months labeling these as "Giants" when in fact they are "Dwarfs". It is just a matter of time before these people too figure out that they didn't recieve what they bought as there frogs are never going to grow. I have faith that you will do the right thing and refund me my money so that I can still walk away from this with a positive attitude about your company. Hopefully this is just a mishap on behalf of the "farms" to you and you can get this situation rectified and compensate the many people whom paid a premium price for something that they did not receiive. I know that I am not your biggest customer by now means, but the $500 of my hard-earned money that I have chose to spend with your company over the last two weeks should count for something. If that doesn't, fortunately for me, I am in law enforcement with connections on a federal level that deal solely in internet frauds. I am also an active member on several of the top Frog Forums on the internet. I'm sure that within a week, I can have the names and contact info of several other unsuspecting customers whom recieved the same "Dwarfs" when they paid a premium for a "Giant". Please. Do the right thing here.

Respectively,

Jeff Kennedy

[Deku]

Thats great and all that you stood up for yourself. But you shouldnt have made that threat there. It may start something.... Just saying, I have delt in the past with threats lets just put it at that. And t hreatening someone over the internet isnt the best thing. Also I dont know if these people will give you their contact info... Just saying... Not really safe for them either to be giving it out.

[Jeff Kennedy]

There is no threat in the email that I have sent to them. I am trying to be as optimistic as I can thinking that maybe they are in fact being mislead from these "farms" they are purchasing from. That said, I have read testimonials from other folks whom have had problems in the past with Big Apple, where they are basically told that unless they receive notification from an expert in the field, they will not issue a refund. I have the highest of hopes that Steven will make this right as aside from this, he has been great to deal with. If it is not a glitch and he is aware that they are actually selling "dwarfs" as "giants" because they can be purchased cheaper and there is more of a demand for "giants", then that is fraud and I will exercise every right I have as a consumer and a law abiding citizen, to make sure that this doesn't happen to anymore unsuspecting buyers. There is no threat in that.

[John]

I hear you Jeff but I'm with Kevin - that does come across as a threat and I think you should have held that back until you needed it, say after an initial negative response. However, best of luck to you in this.

If you want a true giant, I recommend you keep an eye on kingsnake for the time being - I am sure thefrogranch.com (the main US breeder of these frogs) has a crop coming along any time now and they'll start popping up. You might even be able to find a local supplier, such as a pet shop, so you can see the frog in person. With these frogs, either you can't find a single one or there are plenty available. Right now we are in a period of the former kind. I wouldn't buy an adult male if I were you - just buy a couple of youngsters (which should cost you no more than $30 each retail) and you'll know if you have a male within 3 months, and a male should pass 6 inches (15 cm) in 6 or 7 months. I like to buy a youngster now and then when I see one, and raise it up for kicks.

[Jeff Kennedy]

I appreciate the info John. I will check into that. From what I have read online this weekend, Big Apple isn't very return/refund friendly. I feel like I have maintained an equal stance at this point by still praising how they have handled everything else aside from this and that the other 3 examples of frogs that I have purchased from them have been just as described. I am optimistic that Steven will take care of this but wanted to also communicate that I am displeased with this and that I don't plan on just laying down on this. If it is handled appropriately, then I will conduct a follow up post praising them as up to this point they have been nice to deal with. If they just blow me off and I am out $200, then I have the luxury of contacting one of my former co-workers whom deals solely in internet fraud. None of that is intended as threats. If they are in fact falsely advertising these things to unsuspecting buyers (myself included) then it needs to stop. I don't see anything wrong with protecting other buyers and if I have some tools on my belt or some connections that can assist me in this manner, then I don't see anything wrong in exercising them. I don't feel as if I have been negative about any of this. The following was Kevin's reply to my original thread on the topic. I don't understand how I am being perceived as threatening or whatnot. That wasn't my intent. I just wanted them to know that I wasn't going to take any of this lying down. Kevin's original reply... "Hmm well I THINK you should talk to the company first (bigapple herps). At first if they are unwilling to make a trade back. Tell them it is against the law to FALSE ADVERTISE. Tell them if they dont return your money back that you WILL SUE their *****. Keep pressing them. Keep calling them, ask for the head person. If they ask "what proof you got?" , you tell them you know alot of people who got scammed by them, and that they will be witnesses. That they even got receipts too. Then just talk to your credit card company."
__________________

[Deku]

I understand how you feel towards them. I feel the same, to me they are like turtlesale.com. Both sites are TERRIBLE to buy from. I knew a friend who got jipped from both. Lets put it like this, they are a "big business", meaning you should watch your words around them. They too have lawyers, they could come up with some bs saying you are harrassing/threatening them. You have to go by the rules, not just rules of the law, but rules of the society. If that makes any sense.
First you warn them that they sold you the wrong item- Nicely and ask for a return/refund.

Second- Should they not comply, you tell them you have proof. You take photographic evidence of the site/page of where you purchased it. You get evidence to pile up:
1)Testimonials
2)Photos of a dwarf, and photos of a true giant.
3)E-mails. anything that is helpful.

Thirdly-Then you make threats should they not comply, but of course REASONABLE threats. Don't leave yourself open for any lawsuits or loopholes. Remember that, and think like a lawyer cunniving, devious, sneaky little rat(no offense to any lawyers out there). Show the person you mean business, and that you know what you are talking about. Be confident, but dont be cocky.

Four-Should they STILL not comply, show the police evidence, and make a lawsuit. Remember to keep AS MUCH EVIDENCE as posible, record calls, save and print emails, anything you have.



Overall you also need to remember we are human, if we feel threatened we will show our fangs. Also the fact you dont mess with a person unless you ABSOLUTELY need to. My aunt is a police officer, so is my friends parent. My uncle is a lawyer, and my friend is studying to be one. So I know a thing or two. Just saying, be friendly above all, and avoid any threats.

Good luck to you man. I hate these type of people, and for the record... These guys mostlikely know that these are dwarfs. I mean do you think YOU are the only one who probably complains to them? If 80people complain to a person about being mis-sold an item. Don't you think they would catch on by now? This is why I prefer expos over these.

[Deku]

I appreciate the info John. I will check into that. From what I have read online this weekend, Big Apple isn't very return/refund friendly. I feel like I have maintained an equal stance at this point by still praising how they have handled everything else aside from this and that the other 3 examples of frogs that I have purchased from them have been just as described. I am optimistic that Steven will take care of this but wanted to also communicate that I am displeased with this and that I don't plan on just laying down on this. If it is handled appropriately, then I will conduct a follow up post praising them as up to this point they have been nice to deal with. If they just blow me off and I am out $200, then I have the luxury of contacting one of my former co-workers whom deals solely in internet fraud. None of that is intended as threats. If they are in fact falsely advertising these things to unsuspecting buyers (myself included) then it needs to stop. I don't see anything wrong with protecting other buyers and if I have some tools on my belt or some connections that can assist me in this manner, then I don't see anything wrong in exercising them. I don't feel as if I have been negative about any of this. The following was Kevin's reply to my original thread on the topic. I don't understand how I am being perceived as threatening or whatnot. That wasn't my intent. I just wanted them to know that I wasn't going to take any of this lying down. Kevin's original reply... "Hmm well I THINK you should talk to the company first (bigapple herps). At first if they are unwilling to make a trade back. Tell them it is against the law to FALSE ADVERTISE. Tell them if they dont return your money back that you WILL SUE their *****. Keep pressing them. Keep calling them, ask for the head person. If they ask "what proof you got?" , you tell them you know alot of people who got scammed by them, and that they will be witnesses. That they even got receipts too. Then just talk to your credit card company."
__________________

You threatened to sue, and mentioned you have contacts. It wasnt that necessary right there. Not only that but they could prepare themselves on court should you sue them. Meaning they could easily find a loophole. Again something you dont want to happen if you are trying to sue, or get something out of it. Just saying. The law can be one thing. But not everyone who does not comply with the law will successfully get sued. Again, you need to be more tact-full when it comes to dealing with a big business. Its like going to a bank and saying hey I like you, but I will sue your *** if you dont help me out.

By law they have to do somethings. But they can very well find a loop hole. Its a possibility, and then what will you do? Tell them its not fair? These people(big business) dont give two hoots about anyone except money. Again Iam just saying. Its a recommendation. Not trying to pick on you, or show you up. Just trying to be nice and caring to tell you what I think and some facts.
Again good luck.

[goreptiles]

I know this is an older thread, but I just saw a kingsnake ad from big apple saying giant pixies were back.
They are still $130

[Kurt]

So there is.

[Tofuman]

$130 seems a bit pricey tho.