White's Tree Frog sick behavior? Pics*

[SamanthaFox]

Hi-I'm a new poster to this site. I have had 2 white's tree frogs purchased from Petco almost 2 years ago. I believe one to be male (Nicodemus) and the other slightly smaller one to be female (Peenuhlope). We have an unconventional tank for them, only because it was a huge glass tank on sale. Below is the picture of their home:

The tank has a fairly large water bowl (left corner) with a filter/waterfall thing. The tank is cleaned about every 3 weeks. Substrate is coconut husk, fake plants, one real wood log, and rocks. The temperature is around 65-70 degrees, we need to do a better job with the humidity, especially since the top of the tank is all screen. I have since placed plastic wrap on half of the tank (not where the lights are). We only feed them crickets, (which we feed dog food and fluker's water quencher calcium fortified gels.) The day light bulb is usually a "zoomed daylight blue reptile bulb 60w UVA" but my husband said they kept burning out so he switched to a 60w "exoterra daytime heat lamp bulb. And the night one is a zoomed red bulb. The tank is unfortunately in a 'high traffic area between our kitchen and living room. We rarely handle them.

MY ISSUE is that for the last 3 days Peenuhlope has been acting strange. She has always been the more jumpy one when we take them out to clean the cage and hides more often than Nico does. But 2 days ago I saw her sitting on the edge of their water bowl awake during the day, and then that night she was jumping into the glass, and even climbing to the top and continually trying to push through the screen (never saw her do that before). I am not sure she is eating, we do leave about 10 crickets in their cage regularly for them to feed on as they please. Last night she was crawling back and forth onthe glass, constantly sliding down and ending up in the substrate, looking like it was hard to move and pull herself up. I know red leg disease seems to be common for them, but couldn't find any info on them crawling around and attempting escape as a symptom. They are usually somewhat tinged pink, and I am fairly busy with 3 young children and a newborn, so forgive me for not knowing if her current color is normal---last night I put her in a 'hospital tank' for quarantine, with clean damp paper towels, a fake plant for hiding, a small water bowl with purified drinking water and the enclosure is in my quiet and warmer room, covered on 3 sides. It sounded like she was crawling up and falling all night, and she didn't eat the 2 small crickets we put in there with her.

So far Nico seems to be fine. He typically sleeps at the top of the tank all day and croaks loudly at night and feeds. I am unsure if she has red leg or some other parasite or is just simply stressed out. Does anyone have advice?
here are pics I took of her in her 'hospital' last night:

does she look sickly or like she has red leg? we are going to buy a more appropriate tank tomorrow. I am just worried about her and also unsure about possibly contamination of Nico if we put her back in with him. PLEASE HELP!

[Frogger00]

Looks like it could be redleg. Keep her in the hospital tank, and try to get the temps up higher, it's a bit too low.


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[SamanthaFox]

Looks like it could be redleg. Keep her in the hospital tank, and try to get the temps up higher, it's a bit too low.

Thanks for the response--any specific advice about treating her red leg? Will a nonstressful environment with clean everything for a few days, do as much good as going to vet to get antibiotics? How long should I keep monitoring her separately? Is red leg caused by bacteria? Or because the tank was too cold? (i've read both). Going to get new tank tomorrow. Will update with any new info.

[Snappi13]

Red leg is caused by multiple causes. One of them being unsanitary tank conditions. The frogs have a hard time digesting there food if the temps are too low in the tank. The temps should range at 75degrees f. At night to 85 for a high during the day with a humidity between 50-70 percent. I would recommend a vet visit ASAP as red leg is deadly and often is caught too late to be treated/ survivable.


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[SamanthaFox]

Just wanted to update:
We are taking the frog to a herp vet in north richland hills tomorrow. I am anxious because we probably won't be able to afford testing, just the evaluation. I am unsure that this is a female now...i was only guessing before. I don't really know if it's red-leg, only because she is still so active, and climbs around at night (her hospital tank is in my bedroom) and I even hear her loudly hitting the sides of the cage. The crickets are still alive and she doesn't seem interested. It has been a whole week that she has been in her hospital tank and not eating. She sits in the water at night, sleeps during the day. Moves around a lot at night. I am posting new pictures but the coloring doesn't seem to have changed. I don't know how she has the energy to move around so much without having eaten.

I was wondering if the dark colored throat is indicative of anything?
Today's pics:

[irThumper]

I agree with getting that heat up there, 77-85F is good for daytime and 72-75F at night is fine (they can handle a wide range of temps but needs to be consistent). Humidity should be right around 50%+/- The tank is pretty sparse, I'd definitely give much more in the way of plants and spaces to hide, that and I'd switch to a different substrate. You might have to look into getting a taller tank and locating it in a quieter part of the house. Do you keep the lights on a 12 hrs on 12 hrs off cycle?

I'm thinking you definitely have a male (check for nuptial pads at the base of his thumbs). At two years of age your frogs should be fully grown and mature, it could be he's displaying these behaviors because he's of breeding age and stressed. I have a male whose not very interested in food at the moment either, though there seems to be nothing wrong with him. He has a female companion but the two don't seem interested in each other at all from a breeding perspective, even though they are both apparently at a stage of breeding readiness. The female keeps oogling a small male in the tank next door and they both seem to want to get in with each other, so who knows! O_o

He looks baggy on his sides too, like he's lacking some chow... do you know when the last time is you saw him eat actually? Or poop? Or shed? You need to be dusting their feeders once a week with a good Cal/Vit D3 supplement and once a week with a multi vitamin powder, even if you gut load the crickets.

As for red leg... it doesn't look like broken capillaries, but there is quite a bit of pink, could be from all the activity though. Best thing is to check with a vet like you're doing. I hope the vet has some good news for you!

[SamanthaFox]

I agree with getting that heat up there, 77-85F is good for daytime and 72-75F at night is fine (they can handle a wide range of temps but needs to be consistent). Humidity should be right around 50%+/- The tank is pretty sparse, I'd definitely give much more in the way of plants and spaces to hide, that and I'd switch to a different substrate. You might have to look into getting a taller tank and locating it in a quieter part of the house. Do you keep the lights on a 12 hrs on 12 hrs off cycle?

I'm thinking you definitely have a male (check for nuptial pads at the base of his thumbs). At two years of age your frogs should be fully grown and mature, it could be he's displaying these behaviors because he's of breeding age and stressed. I have a male whose not very interested in food at the moment either, though there seems to be nothing wrong with him. He has a female companion but the two don't seem interested in each other at all from a breeding perspective, even though they are both apparently at a stage of breeding readiness. The female keeps oogling a small male in the tank next door and they both seem to want to get in with each other, so who knows! O_o

He looks baggy on his sides too, like he's lacking some chow... do you know when the last time is you saw him eat actually? Or poop? Or shed? You need to be dusting their feeders once a week with a good Cal/Vit D3 supplement and once a week with a multi vitamin powder, even if you gut load the crickets.

As for red leg... it doesn't look like broken capillaries, but there is quite a bit of pink, could be from all the activity though. Best thing is to check with a vet like you're doing. I hope the vet has some good news for you!

HI there Thumper---I was ironically watching your youtube videos last night. I have to say, I loved hearing your enthusiasm when you talk to your froggies. It's so cute! It was oddly comforting to watch those last night. BTW--what happened to your sHEila?

I took Nicodemus to the herp vet last friday. I had researched this dr and am glad we went. She is definitely a lover of frogs! She has her own organization called Geo herps: https://www.facebook.com/GeoHerps
Anyway, she said he looked pretty red, but no broken blood vessels. She thinks he did get some kind of infection, but that the outlook was good since he was so alert and even angry when she was examining him (croaked, throat puffed up and he peed!). So she gave me an all-encompassing antibiotic but said injections are better SO she gave him his first shot in the belly, my husband and I did the second one (was difficult) and I have been taking him back to the vet every other day for them to do the injections for free since I feel like I am hurting him while trying to keep him still. He has 4 more to go.

She also said he looks dehydrated so she gave me an electrolyte powder to dissolve in distilled water and soak him in twice a day. I have been doing it once a day (very busy) but I leave the solution in his cage so he self-treats. We have put in a few dusted crickets but he only ate one once. The are still 3 roaming around in there. I am concerned because his edema seems worse---here are some pics:



ALso here is the new tank that the other frog is in now...can't wait to put my Nico back with his pal Peenuhlope..which is most likely a boy I think too haha.

sorry if it's rotating...don't know why that is.
Anyway, will update again soon. BTW, what are some good ways to up the humidity? Foggers? sphagnum moss?

[teslas intern]

The easiest way to increase humidity is having standing water and or moist substrate in the tank. I keep my substrate moist enough that I don't even need to mist to keep the humidity up to reasonable levels, but keep in mind I use a clay based substrate so it doesn't decompose... It sounds like you maintain your tank regularly so I'd say go ahead and dump some water in your substrate, and use a slightly deeper layer that will hold more water. Also is look into leaf litter for covering the substrate, it will look more natural and help keep froggies clean, as it doesn't stick to their skin. Best of luck!

[Lija]

Hm... That doesn't look good at all, glad you found a vet, what antibiotics are you using?
To increase humidity you just need to adjust your tank a bit, you don't have to have standing water, in fact it's very dangerous to have standing water, its equal bacterial infections and much more.

What is your current humidity? Temps? What type of water do you use? Have you seen the poop lately and how did it look?

for qt tank, I see you put papertowel on a back, you need to out a bigger plant in there, and cover all sides of a tank. This way you eliminate a stress factor and it will help him heal.

I have a few more suggestions here, but I'll wait fir you to answer my qs.

[SamanthaFox]

Hm... That doesn't look good at all, glad you found a vet, what antibiotics are you using?
To increase humidity you just need to adjust your tank a bit, you don't have to have standing water, in fact it's very dangerous to have standing water, its equal bacterial infections and much more.

What is your current humidity? Temps? What type of water do you use? Have you seen the poop lately and how did it look?

for qt tank, I see you put papertowel on a back, you need to out a bigger plant in there, and cover all sides of a tank. This way you eliminate a stress factor and it will help him heal.

I have a few more suggestions here, but I'll wait fir you to answer my qs.

HI--thanks for suggestions. I just can't get the humidity up in my new tank. I bought some sphagnum moss and sprayed it today. I was thinking I should get a heating lamp since my UVB light isn't a warming one.

As far as the quarantine: The RX is amikacin. The vet gave him his 4th shot of it today and she said she thinks he looks much better and to do the electrolyte soak only every other day. He still isn't really eating. I think in the past almost 2 weeks, he has eaten 1 cricket. I tried to tempt him with a waxworm today (first time ever) no luck. I will try tonight. Since being in qt he has only pooped once, a week ago, after his first appt/shot. It looked normal. I typically use bottled drinking purified water, but his soak is distilled with the electrolyte powder dissolved. I will get him more cover in the quarantine tank. He is still so active and seems to like the warmth of my hand (i wear gloves and it's only when moving him to do the soak). The qt humidity is 50%, and temp is 71 degrees. I am anxious to put him in the new cage with his buddy because it has a lot more cover and I think he will like it. But I will wait til the meds are finished.

Any other tips for temp/humidity are welcome. On the large tank with the other frog, I have a heating pad on one side but the temp (gauge is on opposite lower corner) only varies from 72-75 degrees. The humidity is only 25% in that one and that's with me covering half the top of the screen with siran wrap and towel, with the damp moss, and a running water filter/waterfall thing. I was thinking maybe its because this tank has the front opening doors and more air is getting in?

[Lija]

No, take the moss out, it's an impaction risk.

humidity/temps - what are you using to measure them?

To increase humidity you just need to cover more screen top. You can completely cover the top with foil ( it helps with temps better then wrap.), then cut the hole for the lamp, diameter of lamp + a little bit. Duck tape the foil to the screen cover, from outside, this way it's more stable.

but before ou do anything make sure your temps/humidity are actually off, if you use analog gauges they are very well known to show whatever.

does the poop look normal? Have you ever did fecal testing?

Was the frog ever in the new tank? You need more sitting spots ( branches) some more leafy hanging things on a sides to make them well more comfortable.

Have another suggestion - get some reptiboost ( reptiaid ) by fluckers, dust his food with it. That thing is really good to get them better.

[SamanthaFox]

I took the moss out. So much contradiction among sources online. I didn't like the moss anyway though--what a mess.

I will try the foil thing and possibly a heat lamp. For the new cage, I am using a digital hygrometer so it's probably accurate. As for the qt, I only yesterday took the old analog gauges out of the garage where the humidity read 10%--so I am pretty sure it's accurate since it now says 60%.

Nico has only pooped one time since being quarantined and it looked totally normal. Have not done fecal testing but I trust the doc we are taking him to, and she will see him tomorrow for another shot. Nico was never in the new tank.

I will pick up some reptiboost. Thanks for suggestions--what is you opinion on waxworms? I usually only feed him crickets but he doesn't seem interested. I tried putting a waxworm dangling in front of him--he wasn't interested. I don't know how he is so alert only having eaten one small cricket in the past 2 weeks.

[Lija]

Fecal testing in your case I don't think is absolutely needed, but it's better to do that for both frogs to be sure and have a piece of mind. Worms are not a reason for your problem. Usually that test is done when you just get frogs.

waxworms are great for your sick one, they are fattening and just what the guy need. When you take him to a vet, im sure she'll assess the situation. Ask her about if you need to force feed him, its easier to see that in person how bad the shape is and if he needs to be stuffed asap or it still can wait.

Usually sick frogs don't eat, just like humans, when you're sick you dont really hungry, the problem with that is without nutrition the immune system and all systems really are starting to shut down, the body just don't have enough strength to fight what it needs to and we have to resort to force feeding, your vet should assess if a frog is there or not yet. Ask about it.

Moss - yes in theory it should increase humidity, but do anything for a bigger tank you need to have tons of it and keep it moist at all the time ( not happening ). Moss if ingested is one of the main impaction reasons. Even if you feed in a separate cage, the frog might ingest it while shedding. So really potential benefits are minor when you risk dealing with impaction in frogs. Better be safe then sorry.

Yes, try foil and cover more, if you still not getting it, then perhaps you should either invest in a fogger or mist the tank more.

[irThumper]

HI there Thumper---I was ironically watching your youtube videos last night. I have to say, I loved hearing your enthusiasm when you talk to your froggies. It's so cute! It was oddly comforting to watch those last night. BTW--what happened to your sHEila?

Hi again, Samantha! Commented on your reply on YouTube My poor sHEila and his friends came to me from Petco having parasites and while I was going through treatment for them he prolapsed... the issue resolved itself twice but the third time it didn't and he had to be put down, *sniff* I miss that little guy so much!

[SamanthaFox]

Just a quick update--I tried giving Nico the reptiboost stuff dissolved in water and using the doser they gave but he wouldn't open his mouth and got angry and peed on me. I put some of the reptiboost powder on 3 waxworms and left them in his cage overnight. When I checked on him once last night, his eyes were big and black (alert) so I used a youtube vid of croaking frogs to get him to respond which he did! I didn't see the waxworms today so I thought either he ate them or the 2 roaming crickets did. We took him to the vet for his 5th shot today and she said he still had some edema, and that if he doesn't eat by monday, she will have to tube-feed him

We just got home and I put in a new duo-lamp that has a warming bulb (75w) and a UVB bulb. While cleaning out the qt tank, I saw the 3 waxworms under some paper towel so they weren't eaten at all. I took the crickets out, and put 4 very small "superworms" in a dish with that reptiboost powder + a little water. The 3 waxworms are still in there too. He seemed agitated when I put him back in and his thighs looked pretty red..darker than I have seen. While he was in the travel carrier on the wall, I thought his belly looked pretty good--less red and more white. But when he stretches his legs out they looked red. I am hoping it was just because I was handling him. It's been over 2 weeks since he has really eaten and yet he seems pretty active.

btw---that reptiboost STINKS bad! I also bought a leafy fake plant at the pet store to give him more hiding spots in the qt tank.

I use a red light on the main cage at night but even with that on, I wasn't seeing the other frog (Peenuhlope) move from her spot at the top of the tank so I turned off all the lights and put foil on half the screen like you said. As soon as I went upstairs, I heard it croaking--I think it was happy to have no lights for once. What do you all use at night and why? Also, I think the foil has helped a bit with the humidity; it has since ranged between 35-55% humidity. Its a start.

I really hope Nico is on the mend and not dying. He doesn't seem lethargic which is good. I will leave him be for the rest of the day to sleep, and maybe try to feed him and soak him in the electrolyte water tonight after church. I will try to get some pictures too.

[SamanthaFox]

It seems the forum was down for a day or so.

Anyway, here are some updated pics. Still hasn't eaten anything--i tried crickets, waxworms and small superworms. When I put him on my hand and put a worm by him he flicks it away hard. I got a heat bulb to use along side the UVB bulb, but I can't leave it on too long or it dries the tank out so much and it got too hot yesterday...hope it didn't stress him out too much.

I put a cave thing in there yesterday and he's been in there all day. I don't see the one cricket I put in there, or one of the waxworms but I think they are just probably hidden unfortunately. I take him for his 6th (of 7) shot tomorrow so I hope he doesn't have to be forcefed.

Please look at these pics and tell me if you think he looks worse--his legs seem more red and still swollen He's still pretty active though:


And here are photos of the new cage w the other frog Peenuhlope--"sHE" seems fine and has had normal poop. Nico has only pooped once in the past 2 weeks and I havent seen him eat.

[SamanthaFox]

Since having posted last, I think Nico is getting better! He slept under this cave thing and I think it greatly relieved his stress. He has been eating one or two crickets (didn't witness it, but they aren't there and I don't think they could escape. Anyway, I am anxious to see him poop to know for sure. His color looked better when i cleaned out his tank last night. Here are a few pics. Didn't want to disturb him too much to get a good pic of his belly but it looks less red and his legs from what I can see look less swollen---since the new server, this site won't allow my pictures to post, so anyone interested--feel free to check out my blog and let me know what they think of his progress. thanks! www.johnsamanthahodge.blogspot.com

[irThumper]

Hi again! FrogForum's downtime was making my eye twitch... lol! Glad Nico is looking much better and starting to eat! Much better tank selection too From the last pics on here I could see he was shedding some skin, so a good hydration is probably what he needed (a bowl big enough to soak up to his chin when sitting up is a good rule of thumb) and glad he was able to get some sleep in the hide too.

Thanks for sharing my vid on your blog! I'm glad they were able to help ^_^ Keep us updated on how Nico and Peenuhlope (who from the looks of that darker throat might indeed be a male, lol) are doing!

PS: When humidity drops don't be afraid to mist! People wonder why I mist my guys so much... "I mist because I must!" When humidity drops to 40% or lower (which the lights dry things out a LOT-- I can tell easily enough by the dry paper towels and crunchy fake leaves) I give them a good spray from a micro-fine misting bottle, which you can find in garden centers-- avoid the cheapo bottles, they have too coarse of a spray and don't last long before they break it seems.

Good luck with the froggles!

[SamanthaFox]

thanks again--your frogs sure look very happy and healthy. I have been misting a lot because as you said, those lights dry everything out a lot! I am anxious to put Nico in his new cage back with his friend, but I don't want to do more damage. I guess i'll ask the vet tomorrow if we are able to go.

will keep you updated!

p.s. i see youre in the PNW--have you seen the show Portlandia? One of my favorites!

[irThumper]

thanks again--your frogs sure look very happy and healthy. I have been misting a lot because as you said, those lights dry everything out a lot! I am anxious to put Nico in his new cage back with his friend, but I don't want to do more damage. I guess i'll ask the vet tomorrow if we are able to go.

will keep you updated!

p.s. i see youre in the PNW--have you seen the show Portlandia? One of my favorites!

Nope, haven't seen the show, believe it or not... lol. I'm an occasional Grimm watcher, though, which is also set in Portland The motto around here is "Keep Portland Weird", so that fits perfectly

(Just saw your PM, will go reply!)