Strange Behaviour: White's

[eskips]

Hello,

I am new to the forum and to being an owner of frogs. I have noticed my smaller White is behaving oddly and have been very concerned as I have a second White's. Last night I found Kiwi, my little frog, with its face in the water. I very quickly sprung into action and moved it to a safer location, but he kind of flopped on his back and seemed really uncoordinated with stiff movements. I also noticed he had the edge of his tongue out. He was rather chilly, so I held him until he seems to regain his coordination, put his tongue back in his mouth, and started to clean the moss from his head.

After I returned him to the terrarium he started moving around like nothing happened. I of course was on edge for the rest of the night and would jump up at any noise afraid he had gone back to the water! Instead he kept trying to climb on the screen roof of the terrarium and even fell in his attempt.

I know he ate a large cricket with calcium powder the other day and has been visiting the water to sit on the edge. I am going to start adding liquid calcium to his water as he is small instead of the dust. I am also going to start to hand feed with forceps to make sure Kiwi is getting the proper nutrition and not being intimidated by Sydney, my other White's.

I use peat moss as my current substrate and was wondering if impaction could cause this strange behavior or if there is something more serious at play. I added two photos of Kiwi that were taken last Saturday.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated as I want my little guy to thrive and I am really worried about him! Thank you!

[elly]

When did you get him and was he fed with calcium when he was younger? I'm no vet, but I've heard that vitamin A deficiency can have an effect on a frog's tongue- no idea if it would make it stick out or cause stiff movements. You should probably quarantine the little frog just in case it has an illness.

Also, giving more details might help some people who are more experienced try to figure out what the problem is:
QUESTIONS

1----what 'kind' of frog is it ( what species)
2----please include a photo of the frog
3----Please include a photo of the frog's current enclosure
4----size of enclosure ( W" x D" x H" )
5----# on inhabitants - ( if there is another frog --- is there a size difference ? )
6----has or was the frog kept with a different species or with any other tank mate
7----is there a new tank mate----was the new tank mate quarantined
8----what is the typical humidity level
9----what temperature is maintained
10---what is, specifically, being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
11---describe the enclosure lighting ( very specifically)
12---describe enclosure maintenance ( water changes, cleaning etc)
13---what kind of water is used
-----for misting
-----for the frog's soaking dish
-----is de-chlorinator used / what brand
14---material(s) used for substrate - be very specific
15---enclosure set up:
-----if recent - describe how the enclosure was cleaned
-----plants( live or artificial) if artificial plants are used are they plastic or fabric
-----describe wood, bark , and background materials
16---when is the last time the frog ate
17---have you found poop lately
18---how often is the frog fed
19---what size feeder is given
20---what other feeders are used as treats
21---what is the frog's main food source
22---do feeders roam free in the enclosure or is the frog bowl fed
23---vitamins - what brand and how often
24---calcium - what brand and how often
25---was the frog without calcium for any period of time
26---approximate age of the frog
27---how long have you owned the frog
28---who cared for the frog before you
29---is the frog wild caught or captive bred
30---how often the frog is handled -- are gloves used ( what kind of gloves)
31---is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
30---has or was the frog properly quarantined (yes or no)
-----for how long
32---has the frog been treated with any medication:
-----for what
-----name of medication
-----for how long
-----what dose
-----was medication prescribed by a herp vet?

[eskips]

Hi,

Thanks for the response I will add the extra information at the bottom. I have to admit I got my first White's at a small local pet store with more experienced handlers where as the little guy came from petco. I have had Kiwi since the 22nd of Jan, so only two weeks. Since getting Kiwi, I did a through cleaning job and re-vamped the new terrarium that my two frogs share. I do not currently have a quarantine tank unless I used the one with my carnivorous plants because I do not have any extra heating sources. Is it possible to put a small enclosed container in the larger terrarium for quarantine? This would allow me to maintain a more stable environment for the quarantine tank.

1----what 'kind' of frog is it ( what species) White's Tree Frog
2----please include a photo of the frog
3----Please include a photo of the frog's current enclosure I will add a photo later, but it is an exoterra
4----size of enclosure ( W" x D" x H" ) 18 x 18 x 24
5----# on inhabitants - ( if there is another frog --- is there a size difference ? ) 2 frogs, yes there is a size difference
6----has or was the frog kept with a different species or with any other tank mate? Yes, Kiwi is housed with another White's
7----is there a new tank mate----was the new tank mate quarantined? No
8----what is the typical humidity level? 65-80%
9----what temperature is maintained? 75-83 f
10---what is, specifically, being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure? 60w daylight bulb, 75w red heat bulb
11---describe the enclosure lighting ( very specifically)? Zoomed two bulb hood
12---describe enclosure maintenance ( water changes, cleaning etc) I have a pump that circulated the water in the enclosure and anything added is cleaned, whole tank is cleaned monthly.
13---what kind of water is used? All water is filtered, if tap then treated
-----for misting
-----for the frog's soaking dish
-----is de-chlorinator used / what brand Aquasafe, but I just got reptisafe
14---material(s) used for substrate - be very specific Peat Moss, no nutrients
15---enclosure set up: Exoterra small tall enclosure with bridge, vine, leafy fake plant, a fake tree (which I am going to remove)
-----if recent - describe how the enclosure was cleaned Diluted Hydrogen Peroxide was used to clean the tank, then distilled water
-----plants( live or artificial) if artificial plants are used are they plastic or fabric? Plastic
-----describe wood, bark , and background materials? Styrofoam exoterra rock wall
16---when is the last time the frog ate? For certain 2 days
17---have you found poop lately? No, I have had a crazy few days, but will do a thorough inspection tonight.
18---how often is the frog fed? Every other day
19---what size feeder is given? Medium crickets
20---what other feeders are used as treats? Haven't done this yet
21---what is the frog's main food source? Crickets
22---do feeders roam free in the enclosure or is the frog bowl fed? Currently, they roam, but I am going to start using forceps to make sure Kiwi is eating enough
23---vitamins - what brand and how often? Currently, none
24---calcium - what brand and how often? Zoomed reti-calcium, switching to Flukers liquid calcium
25---was the frog without calcium for any period of time? It is possible, Petco is not the best at animal care
26---approximate age of the frog? I believe only a few months
27---how long have you owned the frog? 2 weeks
28---who cared for the frog before you? Petco
29---is the frog wild caught or captive bred? C.B.
30---how often the frog is handled -- are gloves used ( what kind of gloves)? Only as needed for terrarium cleaning, no gloves just clean hands
31---is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area? Fairly Low, my bedroom
30---has or was the frog properly quarantined (yes or no) No
-----for how long
32---has the frog been treated with any medication:No
-----for what
-----name of medication
-----for how long
-----what dose
-----was medication prescribed by a herp vet?

[Frogger00]

He should be alright if he's doing okay now. I don't think impaction would cause that, but you never know. It's recommended not to use moss as a substrate, because of impaction. Try a coconut based substrate, they are safer if ingested.


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[eskips]

I kind of freaked out over the whole thing and practically ran to the pet store today! This evening the coconut substrate goes in!

[elly]

The only things I can think of are:
A. Unknown illness
B: malnutrition, of calcium or other
C: Just a fluke muscle contraction?
D: I'd say maybe he's not getting enough to eat, but he looks healthy enough.

[deranged chipmunk]

i would monitor the frog very closely for the next day or so. if he shows any signs, immediately remove it from the tank and put it into a quarantine tank with paper towel substrate. i would advise against using the liquid calcium, especially in their water dish. frogs can, and have overdosed on calcium and since they absorb everything through their skin, it wouldn't take a big mistake in the calcium dose to have that happen. the sprays are garbage also. best to stick with dusting the crickets.

your substrate, while not ideal, most likely is not a cause for concern, provided it is a good milled sphagnum, with no ferts added and not that scott's brand that is sold at most big box stores.

you did the right thing getting reptisafe. aquasafe have slime coating enhancers, which frogs don't need, and the jury is still out whether or not they are harmful.

#29 - C.B. - very doubtful. most likely, they are wild caught. i know the store rep said they were captive bred, but if they were, they wouldn't have been $20 or so. which brings me to my next thing. both frogs really should have a fecal exam done for parasites. i know they are looking and acting normal (for the most part), but i would bet that one, if not both have parasites.

that's all i have for now.

[elly]

Yeah, some people might have gotten frogs from Petco that were perfectly fine, but I have heard a number of stories about them carrying parasites or excess protozoa. The one I got certainly did. It would be a good idea to look for exotic vets in your area that would be willing to fecal test a frog.

[deranged chipmunk]

Yeah, some people might have gotten frogs from Petco that were perfectly fine, but I have heard a number of stories about them carrying parasites or excess protozoa. The one I got certainly did. It would be a good idea to look for exotic vets in your area that would be willing to fecal test a frog.

Exactly. and it only takes 1 frog with parasites to muck up a shop setup for a LONG time since they are kept in such groups. also remember, that in this particular shop, red eyes, which are normally W.C. from there, and are notorious for parasites in W.C. animals, are kept in the same cabinet with open tops. so, if none of the white's had parasites before they were held in that store, odds are they have them after being in their holding tank for a bit

petstores, both large AND small, should be more concerned about cross contamination. even the best local mom and pop shop i have around here, i have watched employees go from tank to tank, different departments, without ever so much as wiping their hands let alone wash them. so that's not a thing that is exclusive to the big stores.

and i agree with elly, see if there is a local vet that can do a fecal exam for you on each frog. if not, you can send one to Dr. Frye. his info is on the forum all over the place.

[eskips]

Unfortunately, I had to go to school and my mom was checking on Kiwi periodically and the last check he was found dead in the water.I am very sad, but now my attention is on making sure the habitat is safe for my other frog. So I have the very unfortunate task of cleaning and disinfecting everything,

I really appreciate all the feedback and will make sure to quarantine any future frogs and to make sure the vendor is repeatable.

[Frogger00]

Unfortunately, I had to go to school and my mom was checking on Kiwi periodically and the last check he was found dead in the water.I am very sad, but now my attention is on making sure the habitat is safe for my other frog. So I have the very unfortunate task of cleaning and disinfecting everything,

I really appreciate all the feedback and will make sure to quarantine any future frogs and to make sure the vendor is repeatable.

Oh no! I wonder what happened! I'm so sorry for you and I hope your other frog is alright.


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