Spontaneous Abortion of Ova???

[irThumper]

Cross posted to Frogs of The World Group at Facebook

Is it possible for a young adult (appx 1 year) female White's tree frog to spontaneously abort ova instead of absorbing them?? I found a bloody blob of what looked like loose feces and gelatinous gunk filled with white things yesterday, and today a smaller less bloody but still blood tinged blob of the same thing. Frog is COMPLETELY normal in all activity... very energetic, voracious as usual (tried to eat her companion when he moved in the water dish!) climbing about, bright and interested, normal color. She had a recent fecal test which was clear for coccidia (been treated for coccidiosis after testing positive in November, been off treatment for a few weeks) but the test came back with what looked like a couple of hook worm eggs (another frog in a different tank had a positive hookworm test). All through the coccidiosis episode she and her tank mate had loose or poorly formed stool and little jelly blobs, but NO sign of fresh blood at all. I've sent the horrific mess off to the vet for testing and will be getting a video out to him as well (he's in OK, I'm about 2,000 miles away from him in OR). I am completely stymied by this!





I'm just wondering if this is a possibility instead of passing ingested paper towel, or even parasites since their tests have shown minimal parasite action... O_o

[elly]

Hookworms? That's too bad. Hopefully the test should tell you what you need to know. With luck it's only unfertilized frog eggs.

The activity probably means she's not extremely sick, but even sick frogs don't show it, so I don't know how much of an indicator that is.

[irThumper]

Here's video I made of what's going on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsgI...ature=youtu.be

The sample just arrived at the vet's office this morning; Lucy's got there yesterday but I haven't heard back on that yet. I haven't been able to find out a thing about this online

[andaroo]

Here's video I made of what's going on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsgI...ature=youtu.be

The sample just arrived at the vet's office this morning; Lucy's got there yesterday but I haven't heard back on that yet. I haven't been able to find out a thing about this online

I just watched your whole 25 minute video trying to figure it out... I think it could be either like you think unfertilized eggs, or maybe she was badly impacted by something she ate that she shouldn't have and finally managed to push it all out but internally injuring herself which caused the blood. It kind of looks like guts with all the blood but she would be dead if that was the case. I wouldn't feed her, they can go weeks without food a couple of days is really nothing to worry about at all. I was corrected by an amphibian "expert" on another forum that frogs do not absorb their eggs. They said they will release them and if they do not find a suitable depositing site to release them it could cause internal issues? I'm not too sure what they said exactly but it was something along those lines. Though I have had female whites for years that have never done this, plus lots of other female frogs that have never done this either. The side that got smaller is the side their egg sack is on so maybe that is what it is. She doesn't seem phased by it, but most frogs especially white's are phased by pain they just want to eat!

[irThumper]

I just watched your whole 25 minute video trying to figure it out... I think it could be either like you think unfertilized eggs, or maybe she was badly impacted by something she ate that she shouldn't have and finally managed to push it all out but internally injuring herself which caused the blood. It kind of looks like guts with all the blood but she would be dead if that was the case. I wouldn't feed her, they can go weeks without food a couple of days is really nothing to worry about at all. I was corrected by an amphibian "expert" on another forum that frogs do not absorb their eggs. They said they will release them and if they do not find a suitable depositing site to release them it could cause internal issues? I'm not too sure what they said exactly but it was something along those lines. Though I have had female whites for years that have never done this, plus lots of other female frogs that have never done this either. The side that got smaller is the side their egg sack is on so maybe that is what it is. She doesn't seem phased by it, but most frogs especially white's are phased by pain they just want to eat!

After a little talk with Mike Novy I think I definitely got onto the right track. He's had females drop eggs only to loose them, but only one time did he see blood, and then it wasn't a lot. When taking a closer look at that gunk it sure reminded me of the tissue from a goat's afterbirth... nasty, bloody and gelatinous. What are those white things though? The unfertilized ova? She so far is still acting her usual self. I just hope if this was an infertile egg dump (and I'm 98% sure this is what's going on) then I hope she's got everything out and nothing remains inside to go septic on her. That's weird you said the other person said the eggs don't absorb back into the frog, I know this can happen in other species, and in fact rabbits can can absorb developing fetuses.

Well my guess is this, she and her buds were from a 2014 hatch and were probably somewhere between 5-9 months when I got them... my one male started calling, then the slightly younger one after that, and the baby male came in third. The first two males also developed thumb pads, which is supposed to be done only by breeding ready males. It's been warmer than usual here, the native frogs are going crazy calling outside, it's raining, my two remaining males (lost sHEila, my first caller) started going back and forth AND I've been feeding these guys daily since I got them. I also mist frequently because these guys have been in their 5.5 gallon QT tanks since I got them in Oct (I've been wanting to move them into a bigger QT tank), and with the warmth, perfect temp, extra spraying, humidity, etc. Shirley got all egged up-- BUT there was no suitable place to spawn, and Honey has never (at least in my presence) tried to get into amplexus with her. I'm wondering if I get them into that bigger tank and give them a suitably deep dish of water whether that will happen... I don't want them to breed at this point, but I sure don't want her having extra eggs inside that could cause a problem either!

[elly]

Maybe the white things were eggs after they'd clouded up a bit?

[irThumper]

I read that eggs don't actually swell up until they are in the water, so not sure what part these things would have been. Need to find some pics, if there are any out there, of what the eggs look like inside the frog. :/

[andaroo]

After a little talk with Mike Novy I think I definitely got onto the right track. He's had females drop eggs only to loose them, but only one time did he see blood, and then it wasn't a lot. When taking a closer look at that gunk it sure reminded me of the tissue from a goat's afterbirth... nasty, bloody and gelatinous. What are those white things though? The unfertilized ova? She so far is still acting her usual self. I just hope if this was an infertile egg dump (and I'm 98% sure this is what's going on) then I hope she's got everything out and nothing remains inside to go septic on her. That's weird you said the other person said the eggs don't absorb back into the frog, I know this can happen in other species, and in fact rabbits can can absorb developing fetuses.

Well my guess is this, she and her buds were from a 2014 hatch and were probably somewhere between 5-9 months when I got them... my one male started calling, then the slightly younger one after that, and the baby male came in third. The first two males also developed thumb pads, which is supposed to be done only by breeding ready males. It's been warmer than usual here, the native frogs are going crazy calling outside, it's raining, my two remaining males (lost sHEila, my first caller) started going back and forth AND I've been feeding these guys daily since I got them. I also mist frequently because these guys have been in their 5.5 gallon QT tanks since I got them in Oct (I've been wanting to move them into a bigger QT tank), and with the warmth, perfect temp, extra spraying, humidity, etc. Shirley got all egged up-- BUT there was no suitable place to spawn, and Honey has never (at least in my presence) tried to get into amplexus with her. I'm wondering if I get them into that bigger tank and give them a suitably deep dish of water whether that will happen... I don't want them to breed at this point, but I sure don't want her having extra eggs inside that could cause a problem either!

Is there a reason you have them so damp and spray them regularly? I actually keep my white's very dry and only mist them in the winter months as the air gets very dry here. When researching on how to breed white's a few years ago I remember reading they needed to be cycled, which included a period of them being kept cold in the dark and not fed for a month or so, before raising tenperatures and feeding regularly which makes them think its spring so they will develop eggs. Not sure if this is correct or not as I never tried it

[Crunchy Frog]

I read that eggs don't actually swell up until they are in the water, so not sure what part these things would have been. Need to find some pics, if there are any out there, of what the eggs look like inside the frog. :/

This is the best I can come up with for a picture.

I'm glad you got to talk to Mike Novy. I would listen to him over any vet when it comes to frogs. I suppose it could have been badly degraded eggs, maybe along with infected or inflamed tissue. Since frogs are not amniotes like goats, there would not be anything resembling placental tissue or membranes involved.

Hopefully, whatever it was, she's gotten it out of her system.

[irThumper]

This is the best I can come up with for a picture.

I'm glad you got to talk to Mike Novy. I would listen to him over any vet when it comes to frogs. I suppose it could have been badly degraded eggs, maybe along with infected or inflamed tissue. Since frogs are not amniotes like goats, there would not be anything resembling placental tissue or membranes involved.

Hopefully, whatever it was, she's gotten it out of her system.

WHOA!!!! Glass frog with eggs?? That is an AWESOME pic, thanks! Dang... well those are definitely white... as for the blood stuff, dunno! She passed a few more white things a few days ago but none since, she's getting rid of this gelatinous stuff though. It could be from hookworm (though the vet said he saw only what "could have been a couple of hookworm eggs" in the fecal test) and it could be from coccidiosis, though in all the time I've had them none of them have ever had bloody stool :/ If this next test comes out inconclusive, thanks to the length of time it's taking me to collect fecal matter and get it out to be tested (mobile clinic coming up here on Sunday) I'm going to ram my head into the wall. Definitely going to be purchasing a good microscope and learning how to do my own tests...