Fearing that I too, got scammed. (Dwarf African Bullfrogs/Pyxies sold as Giants)

[Jeff Kennedy]

Apparently this is an all too familiar topic. I just stumbled across a topic on this forum that aroused some concern for me. I fell in love with the African Bullfrog a couple of months back. My first choice was to find an adult male for sale but this wasn't possible at the time. I really even had trouble finding babies or juvies for sale. I did find one. Advertised as a Giant Pyxie. The particular ones were being sold as 4 inch beauty's with a price tag of $129.95 (not including shipping). I contacted the place via telephone and a woman answered. I had questions about there frogs because I wanted to ensure that I was getting an actual Giant African bullfrog. She transferred me to a male subject who was very polite and seemed very well educated in the likes of these frogs. He informed me that he is one of the only distributors who get these and that they come from a private farm. He further advised me that they have moved like around 90 of these since March. I was told that without a doubt, mine was the giants and that the males would reach 10". I was also advised that I would be purchasing a male because they are the only ones with a yellow throat and that the farm only releases there males and that they keep the females for breeding. Part of this is my bad. I should have done more research as I now know, the yellow doesn't mean jack and that African's can't really be sexed for sure until they are a little bit older. What I didn't plan on encountering was that I might have possibly paid a premium price on something that isn't what it's suppose to be. I'm sick at my stomach over this. The place that I purchased from has been phenomonal to conduct buisness with for the most part and I have speant several hundreds of dollars with them over the past couple of weeks. Please provide some assistance if you can. My frog has alot of yellow on his throat and belly however the "orange under the armpits" that I have read is an indicator of a true "giant", is not under the arm but it is at the top of his front arms, where our shoulders would be.

[Deku]

I may be wrong. But that looks like a dwarf pixie to me. Just make sure when you ask next time, go by scientific name. TO be quite honest bro. Common name means jack. Because there are alot of confussion over the names. SO you should have just asked for scientific name. If it is an actuall giant pixie, then I guess you're okay. But if its not.... Thenn just return it and ask for full refund! if they refuse, go put em on a black list and warn several reptile sites. As several public sites see that these people are "Bad" they will stop buying fromt here, thus these people will then take into consideration their ethics.

[John]

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for posting. This frog has a somewhat intermediate appearance (which just bears out what I say in the updated care article) but that second last photo tells me it's not a "Giant". There are no guarantees but let's put it this way, I wouldn't buy that frog if I were looking for a "Giant". I rather suspect that the reason the frog is 4" is because this is an adult of whatever variant it is and all the wild caught frogs that have come in lately are like this (there is only one place I know of that "farms" Pyxies in Africa and it does not produce frogs like yours).

LLLReptiles posted on here recently, what I think is rather on the point, that whoever is exporting these from Africa is labeling them as Giants because 99% of people want Giants, not the small variants.

I've been so sick of what's appearing for sale lately that I decided to take photos off kingsnake.com just to show you what people falsely selling as giants.

This is not a Giant African Bullfrog:




Pet Life Forms, this is not a Giant African Bullfrog:


Exotic Pets does not make clear in their ads that this is not a Giant African Bullfrog:




Worst of all is Big Apple Herp, who use this image of a Giant African Bullfrog froglet to sell the same non-giant animals as the folks just mentioned, according to several Big Apple customers who have posted photos of their animals recently on this web site:


Continued in next post.

[John]

Kudos to Mark Lucas for selling these non-giant animals under the correct name from the get-go:


And while LLLReptile had some issues a month or so ago because people were receiving obviously non-giants that were sold as giants, they did change their spec to reflect the origin of the animal as non-giant:


Kudos to Leonard at Salty City for selling these non-giant animals under the correct name:


Kudos to Switzer Reptiles for selling these non-giant animals under the correct name:

[Kurt]

Seems to me that a lot of vendors cannot tell one Pyxicephalus from another. So their supppliers can easily screw them over. Are any these vendors that are selling mislabled Pyxicephalus frogs frog-specialists or are they predominately snake/lizard vendors, that also happen to sell the odd frog or two?

[Deku]

Seems to me that a lot of vendors cannot tell one Pyxicephalus from another. So their supppliers can easily screw them over. Are any these vendors that are selling mislabled Pyxicephalus frogs frog-specialists or are they predominately snake/lizard vendors, that also happen to sell the odd frog or two?

Most vendors Ived come across that have these frogs also supply snakes and lizards. Some even supply turtles. Big apple herps is a place I generally wouldnt trust. I keep hearing stuff about them about their pixies sooo. Yeah. Thing is, I think they know that they're selling dwarves. But they dont care.

[Jeff Kennedy]

This is truly disheartening. The main frog that I wanted was a "true"giant. Can anybody please direct me somewhere where I can find one of these? This is a terrible start to the day. I actually did purchase this one through Big Apple. I have purchased several other frogs from them as well and was actually going to make a purchase tomorrow as well. Not sure what to do at this point. I'm sure my original purchase is non-refundable and they are not willing to take it back. It sucks though because with shipping, I paid close to $170 for this guy.

[John]

I've heard bad things about Big Apple Herp for the last 18 months (ever since I first heard of them). I wouldn't purchase a plastic frog from them, let alone a real one.

Regarding a return, the law says you paid for something you didn't get - they gave you the wrong item - so they are fully responsible and owe you a refund if the frog is returned. However, getting them to comply will likely be impossible.

[Jeff Kennedy]

So my only recourse is to really just openly bash them I guess? I wonder if I could open a dispute with my credit card company??

[John]

So my only recourse is to really just openly bash them I guess?

Well there is no harm in posting testimonials - we have a section for that on the forum.

I wonder if I could open a dispute with my credit card company??

I would talk to Big Apple Herp first. If they don't give you satisfaction, then why not talk to the credit card company - what have you got to lose? Mind you, I'd love to be a fly on the wall when the credit card claims person tries to talk to his/her boss about that one.

[Deku]

So my only recourse is to really just openly bash them I guess? I wonder if I could open a dispute with my credit card company??

Hmm well I THINK you should talk to the company first (bigapple herps). At first if they are unwilling to make a trade back. Tell them it is against the law to FALSE ADVERTISE. Tell them if they dont return your money back that you WILL SUE their *****. Keep pressing them. Keep calling them, ask for the head person. If they ask "what proof you got?" , you tell them you know alot of people who got scammed by them, and that they will be witnesses. That they even got receipts too. Then just talk to your credit card company.

[ben siegel]

Well-I guess I will post my reply on here as for some reason the administrator has actually blocked me from even viewing my original posting in addition to changing the wording in my owns posts title. That is fair how?. I actually get on here to explain this situation and this guy blocks me from viewing my own post or any replies to it. So much for a fair an unbiased public forum!--Take care all. As always--if anyone has any issues with any animal they have purchased from me, give me a call.

So funny too---LLL gets on here and defends themselves and admin offers to sell them banner ad space and says what good guys they are(which I agree with--I like scott and loren).

I get on here and defend myself--even back up my claims with paperwork, and I am banned from my own post and given negative rep?---Nice

[Deku]

Well-I guess I will post my reply on here as for some reason the administrator has actually blocked me from even viewing my original posting in addition to changing the wording in my owns posts title. That is fair how?. I actually get on here to explain this situation and this guy blocks me from viewing my own post or any replies to it. So much for a fair an unbiased public forum!--Take care all. As always--if anyone has any issues with any animal they have purchased from me, give me a call.

So funny too---LLL gets on here and defends themselves and admin offers to sell them banner ad space and says what good guys they are(which I agree with--I like scott and loren).

I get on here and defend myself--even back up my claims with paperwork, and I am banned from my own post and given negative rep?---Nice

Hmm. I gave you the bad "rep". Because not to be rude, and anyone excuse me for my language. But you came off as a rude p****. No offense again. Just stating an opinion. If you want your opinions listened to. Don't be rude about it, and over all dont get frustrated. This is the internet, its not like we are knocking at your door, saying "BEN! BEN! YOUR REPTILES ARE NO GOOD! BEN!". I am assuming you are the guy from big apple herps? That is why you posted here? If you are well the reason the admined may have insulted your site. Because again this is IF you're from big apple herps:
-You sold a wrong species to many people.

I strongly doubt you seriously cant tell the difference between species. I mean no offense, but you are a reptile dealer for sakes! You SHOULD be able to know what frog is what, and their scientific name. Otherwise you wouldnt be selling them. Especially under another name. But the people in this thread are angry at big apple herps because its not just been ONE person that got ripped off. Its been 4-5 one this forum, and Iam sure there are more people that got ripped off. I mean the site put the frog up for like 130bucks. Thats a rip off to begin with. I wouldnt even buy a frog from an online dealer for a 130bucks. Ived seen those frogs by the dozen being sold anywhere else for like 30-40bucks at most. Even this really bad petstore knew the difference between the subspecies. Its not even hard to tell. I mean its not like they are going to be the same size, and color. Most frogs are the same color, and when they're not they either a completely different subspecies or a morph of that species. So again not to be rude. But anyone going online selling animals should DEFENITELY know and be a 100% correct what animal it is. Also, reputable breeders/sellers tend to bring their animals to a herp savvy vet. It only costs one per group. So youd pay only for one animal and the whole group gets a visit. Then you can raise the price a bit and make a profit. But had you even taken it to a vet, the vet could even clarify that it is indeed not a giant. Alot of people try to pass off the african dwarves as african giants. Rule of thumb, put the scientific name in there. Or atleast take the picture of the actual animal and dont write any information if you dont know. You could have put "african bullfrog" along with the picture and sold it for a cheaper price. Rather than a 130 or so. Just saying. I appologize if you don't feel welcomed here. But I took the inittiative to be blunt and honest. Because I dont want you to go and be all like "oh these people dont know squat, these people are all talk and no walk".
Kay, luck with your business, bye.

[SethD]

Well-I guess I will post my reply on here as for some reason the administrator has actually blocked me from even viewing my original posting in addition to changing the wording in my owns posts title. That is fair how?. I actually get on here to explain this situation and this guy blocks me from viewing my own post or any replies to it. So much for a fair an unbiased public forum!--Take care all. As always--if anyone has any issues with any animal they have purchased from me, give me a call.

So funny too---LLL gets on here and defends themselves and admin offers to sell them banner ad space and says what good guys they are(which I agree with--I like scott and loren).

I get on here and defend myself--even back up my claims with paperwork, and I am banned from my own post and given negative rep?---Nice

It is to bad your post/defense was censored unless it was way over the top. I don't know if it was or not I didn't see it. I will say I have had good dealings with ben in the past and doubtless will again should he get in something that interests me. As far as the whole misidentification issue that is why sellers provide pic's. Unless a seller is intentionally misrepresenting what he has for sale a good portion of the responsibility rests with the buyer to know what he is getting. I have seen all sorts of things mislabeled over the years. It happens. Importers and dealer don't always know what they have.

[Deku]

It is to bad your post/defense was censored unless it was way over the top. I don't know if it was or not I didn't see it. I will say I have had good dealings with ben in the past and doubtless will again should he get in something that interests me. As far as the whole misidentification issue that is why sellers provide pic's. Unless a seller is intentionally misrepresenting what he has for sale a good portion of the responsibility rests with the buyer to know what he is getting. I have seen all sorts of things mislabeled over the years. It happens. Importers and dealer don't always know what they have.

He got a bad rep for rudeness. I saw his post. I even replied to it. What I remembered was, that he kept going on about how this site was a bad site, and guilt tripping the mods. To no avail the mods gave the ban hammer to the post! I think it was something about him getting mad about the mods talking bad about him. But I dont remember even seeing the mods talk about bout ben. Unless hes from big apple herps. If he is, well DURP. He put the picture of a friggin' african GIANT bullfrog, and the whole identification of it. I mean had he atleast put the actual pictures of the frog. Like the actual pictures of the whole group and several individual frogs. Then maybe it wouldnt have had happened. Hed gotten an email saying "thats a dwarf" hed change it to dwarf. Then nobody would have complained. But reading the post of jeff kennedy, he got ripped off I THINK 125-130bucks from BIG APPLE HERPS. Because of the whole thing I just said. Iam assuming ben siegel is from big apple herps. I looked at their website, and some animals are abit "off".

Overall reason his post was probably deleted:
-Rudenesss
-Dissing this site directly
-Dissing the mods directly
His whole thread sounded like a hate thread. The rest I dont really know. But hes posted on two threads angry. That should speak for itself bro.

[Paul Rust]

I can tell you that the leadership here does not ban, move, delete, or take any other action lightly. In fact I commonly get shot down about things that I think should be moderated. If anything I would say that the post was removed to protect the poster from making an *** out of himself. Sometimes things happen for you and not always to you.

[SethD]

He got a bad rep for rudeness. I saw his post. I even replied to it. What I remembered was, that he kept going on about how this site was a bad site, and guilt tripping the mods. To no avail the mods gave the ban hammer to the post! I think it was something about him getting mad about the mods talking bad about him. But I dont remember even seeing the mods talk about bout ben. Unless hes from big apple herps. If he is, well DURP. He put the picture of a friggin' african GIANT bullfrog, and the whole identification of it. I mean had he atleast put the actual pictures of the frog. Like the actual pictures of the whole group and several individual frogs. Then maybe it wouldnt have had happened. Hed gotten an email saying "thats a dwarf" hed change it to dwarf. Then nobody would have complained. But reading the post of jeff kennedy, he got ripped off I THINK 125-130bucks from BIG APPLE HERPS. Because of the whole thing I just said. Iam assuming ben siegel is from big apple herps. I looked at their website, and some animals are abit "off".

Overall reason his post was probably deleted:
-Rudenesss
-Dissing this site directly
-Dissing the mods directly
His whole thread sounded like a hate thread. The rest I dont really know. But hes posted on two threads angry. That should speak for itself bro.

He isn't connected to big apple as far as I know. He has his own business if you care to search the web for "ben siegel reptiles" you will find it. His kingsnake adds were some of the first to show up with these tanzanian imports and as far as I can tell the photos are of some of the actual frogs that came in, not like the stock photo of a juvenile south african giant on big apples site. They have used that same stock photo for years. Now these tanzanian pixies are not the same as the south african ones that have been known as "giants" in the past, but I have no reason to doubt that in the import paperwork they were listed as giants. Selling them simply as tanzanian pixies is probably the easiest way to avoid confusion from now on though.

[Deku]

He isn't connected to big apple as far as I know. He has his own business if you care to search the web for "ben siegel reptiles" you will find it. His kingsnake adds were some of the first to show up with these tanzanian imports and as far as I can tell the photos are of some of the actual frogs that came in, not like the stock photo of a juvenile south african giant on big apples site. They have used that same stock photo for years. Now these tanzanian pixies are not the same as the south african ones that have been known as "giants" in the past, but I have no reason to doubt that in the import paperwork they were listed as giants. Selling them simply as tanzanian pixies is probably the easiest way to avoid confusion from now on though.

Hmm okay, well he confused me by posting on the big apple herps thread. So sorry I guess. But he should have been more tactfull I guess.

[Deku]

Also I forgot to add.
He shouldnt had insulted this website, or the moderators.
1)The moderators of this site work VERY VERY hard, for nothing(payment wise). So no one should EVER disrespect a moderator. Especially since all of them are nice, curteous and very understanding.
2)You don't go insulting a website without proof to back it up or an actually good reason.
3)These people work hard and strive to make these forums safe, enjoyable, family friendly and much more. Again nobody goes around thanking them or anything which I myself havent, but now I kinda do. But at the same time no one should go insulting them for any given reason. It doesnt matter what happened TO you. But these people give 1/4-2/4ths of their time, just to provide a safe, fun, and enjoyable environment. I personally am grateful to them for that. Ived been to many other forums, most of which people are rude, stuck up, obnoxious, and the general atmosphere is well just "bad". This is one of the very few actual animal websites where one such as myself can peacefully find information, learn, grow, and etc.

Its why I will defend up for the moderators and why I will stand up to anyone calling them out. Again its not to be rude, but you know THEY DO give us THEIR time. We don't even pay them, thank them or anything. SO we should be grateful to them. Though not saying anyone in here doesnt thank them(I may have misworded it xD). But Iam saying, that the people of this forum should stand up to anyone who tries to challenge a mod. Also he was getting irritated without reason on his first post.

[John]

Ben posted because he saw I called him on selling the wrong frog as "True giant" african bullfrogs - my exact words were "false advertising". He posted a vet certificate which constitutes plausible denial so I removed his name from the false advertising thread. I labeled his new thread as "Ben Siegel Rant" and moved it out of public view for his benefit mostly. Unfortunately I accidentally left a pointer to the post so "Ben Siegel Rant" was viewable in public - my bad. Unfortunately he won't let it go now, playing righteous with me for "accusing" him of false advertising. There was no accusation - it was a fact he was selling the wrong animal under an incorrect name, which is false advertising. To put it in simple terms, if you were doing 80 in a 70 and the cop pulled you over to give you a ticket, whether or not you knew you were speeding does not negate the fact that you were speeding.

Now I was quite content to let this be but since you all started talking about it again, I thought I should at least make the facts clear.