Sad sad day :(

[Thevacantface]

Woke up yesterday to my GABF Kermit, aka Ham, dead in her water. I had the parameters all good, and the necropsy showed nothing, the vet even said she was, internally, the healthiest frog he had ever seen.

We are racking ourselves over what could have gone wrong, and have come up with a few possibilities and would like to know the thoughts of the forum.

So she was just over two years old, was active for a frog, didn't have a huge appetite, maybe 2 or 3 every couple days until recently, where she was eating around 8 large roaches every other day for the past three weeks.

Two major things have come to mind. We noticed the dubia roaches were cannibalizing and the adults were a little malformed about 4 months ago. They were going crazy over the vitamins and calcium so we started adding a sprinkling of ground up multivitamins to their food, and soon after that they were looking much healthier. The vet said there was a very remote possibility of vitamin A toxicosis. Would there have been any outward signs of a problem?

The other thing we think could have happened was a toxic level of ammonia or nitrates in the water. We regularly changed her water, which was a 3 gallon half of her tank, with a small charcoal filter, but it was probably once a week or two depending on how bad the water looked. We had changed it on Sunday and the frog had been in there for about a week, then three days on the new water before dying, and hadn't pooped in the water. My question here is, do the toxins build up in the frog over time, and the water just wasn't clean enough, and fixed out once it hit a certain level.

We have 5 other pacmans, and want to keep them happy and healthy. I don't forsee getting another GABF, we could never replace this one. She was the best frog ever, and our first. Just looking for some closure and hopefully some insight so others might not make our same mistakes.

[Tongue Flicker]

My condolences

[subconix]

How old was your GABF

[Thevacantface]

We got her on 12/2/12 as a froglet of maybe 1-1/2". So she was less than 2.5 years old.

[bcreps]

sorry to hear about your pyx..

[monster]

Just wanted to say sorry to hear about your frog.

[sloom]

very sorry to hear that man. I know you can't really replace frogs once you've named them and had them so long, but best of luck to you in getting interested in gabfs again.

[SwimminSteve]

So sorry about your frog
It sounds like she was well cared for and you were very observant and hands on.
I don't see anything obvious, but there is the remote possibility that there was something wrong with the water used in the most recent water change.
Do you use municipal tap water? Well water? What do you treat it with?
I ask because I once lost a firebelly newt to contaminated city tap water a few years ago. A water main broke in my town and they issued a boil water advisory. Unfortunately we were getting ready to go on vacation and had been in the process of changing the newts' tank- thinking we would leave them fresh and clean for the pet sitter. We didn't get the phone call about the boil-water advisory until we were already enroute to the beach. We called the pet sitter, but sadly it was too late for one newt. We were able to get the surviving newt into safe water within a few hours.
I don't know what it was in the water that killed the newt, but without the water advisory we would have been left wondering what the heck had happened. The newt was 10 years old at the time, so to lose a pet to something stupid like that was very frustrating.

So it's probably only a remote possibility, but perhaps something similar happened to your frog. Sorry for your loss.

[Kerwillard]

As the other half of the Vacantface household, I'd like to tell everybody thank you for your condolences and thoughts. We love coming to the frog forum to share advice, get knowledge, and see the photos of everyones frogs. This event left us totally devastated. Ham was our best friend. Personally I feel like all the confidence I had in my husbandry skills is gone. Did anyone else ever feel that way when they lost their frogs? SwimminSteve we do use city water and treat it with Reptisafe. We had changed the water on Sunday before the weds that she passed, and we saw no visible poop or waste particles and the water was clear. We're just kind of baffled as to how the nitrates and ammonia in the water got so high (we tested with an aquarium test kit and found the ammonia at 4ppm). I want everybody to know if you don't already that the test kits are available for pretty cheap, and i can't say for certain but maybe if we had known to test the water this might have been avoided. Please be careful with your frogs and city water, and don't be fooled by water that looks clear or a frog that seems asymptomatic of toxicity. Test your water because you just never know.

[bcreps]

so the frog was fine the day before? it sounds pretty sudden then. maybe it wasnt anything you could control.

[Thevacantface]

Thank you all for the condolences.

My interest in pyxies hasn't waned, it's just with such a great frog, it would be hard to imagine having a different one.

Yeah, the frog seemed fine just hours before. Saturday night, she ate a bunch. Sunday we changed the water, with plenty of reptisafe in it. She ate a few more Monday night, and was happily soaking in the water on Tuesday. She was even turning to watch me hoping I would feed her while I was feeding the pacmans, but I didn't because she ate the night before. I turned out the lights at about midnight, and found her a bit after 7 the next morning as I was going to work. It was so sudden and no obvious signs of an issue.

[mattfish]

over and over again. water bowls and water features are a HUGE problem!!!! Constant Carbon use in the water is HORRIBLE for frogs!!!! carbon strips the water of everything! in aquariums, fish can lose their protective slime coat and develope pits in their skin if carbon is constantly used!!!! frogs are even more sensative. Carbon does NOT remove bacteria from the water!!!! it is a porous substate that can develope and help colonize bacteria! if there is a bacteria problem in the water ususally you wont see it, in fact the water may even look "very clean" to the eye! You must have the whole thing Bleached!!! bleach is the only sure fire way to kill alll bacteria. OR if you have a water feature then you MUST install an Ultraviolet sterilizing unit (Aquaultraviolet and lifeguard units are the most relaible brands on the market today) to the system. but this requires the water feature to have an external filter unit, like a canaster filter. the U.V. unit can be made inline with the return line from the canaster unit that goes back to the enclosure. Sorry for your lose! If you have a water bowl or water feature you MUST keep it sterile. frogs need the same heat and humidity that bacteria cultures explode in growth under.

[Thevacantface]

Thanks for the info, I really wish this was clear in the care guidelines. For future reference and the health of my pacmans would you recommend that I sterilize their water bowl by boiling them weekly? I know bleach would do it, but using it on their stuff makes me a little nervous. I have such regrets about not proving her with the most upscale filter setup available, she just never showed an issue and we were good about keeping the water clean. Hopefully this can help others.

[mattfish]

Thanks for the info, I really wish this was clear in the care guidelines. For future reference and the health of my pacmans would you recommend that I sterilize their water bowl by boiling them weekly? I know bleach would do it, but using it on their stuff makes me a little nervous. I have such regrets about not proving her with the most upscale filter setup available, she just never showed an issue and we were good about keeping the water clean. Hopefully this can help others.

Yes you would need to sterilize the frogs water container almost daily. the enviroment that frogs need to be housed in is also the Perfect enviroment for bacteria to proliferate also. Most bacterias are harmess and even helpful for the ecosystem that the frogs live in But If a bad bacteria or mold spore get in the enviroment it can rapidly start to reek havok on the frogs health. Animals are programed to Not show weakness in nature. You can have a Bird that is eating and tweeting one day and the next it is sitting on the bottom of the cage. Once they are sitting on the bottom of the cage Most vets will tell you they are to far gone to help. Animals can be very very very sick but act fine until they can no longer. A frog plaqued with a bacteria infection may eat and look bright eyed and bushy tailed one night and the next morning be dead. They just instinctually wont show weakness. Now most bacterial infects take a long while before they kill their host so If you start sterilizing their cage you can break the bacteria or mold colony fast and the frog immune system will take care of the rest. If you choose to have water bowls then you MUst sterlize them regularly, not just clean them with your fingers in the sink or with just soap and water. they need to be bleached or boiled. If you have a water feature in the encloser that can not be easilly removed for regular cleaning them you MUST install a Ultraviolet sterilizer to it some how. that is the only way!!! carbon Does NOT kill bacteria or mold!!!!!
I hope you get anotherr African Pixie! Pacman frogs are Awesome to and involve the same maintenance instructions to the water containers! (:

[Lija]

I'm kinda late on board here, was away.
First of all im so very sorry for your loss. Some frogs get under our skin really badly and losing them feels like you just lost a human being, know that so very well so sorry, with time it'll get better, but you will always remember her.

Now for reasons.
I very highly doubt there is a possibility of toxicosis it would be visible clearly on a necropsy.

yes, I agree that the water very likely contributed to the loss of a frog. Regular Filters for these big frogs are simply not strong enough, only daily changes of water can work, with a huge external filters you can get away without changing water for a few days, but never a week. If you have a huge sump for a very small in comparison amount then possibly you can stretch water changes to some extend.

Now as for pacmans. You don't really need to go crazy on uv or anything, change the water ( tap with reptisafe, prime, any conditioner), if you know you can't trust your tap, get spring water, and treat with water conditioner too. Sterilizing water bowl daily seems very excessive

Usually i desinfect the water bowl at the same time as tank - once a month with mild bleach or vinegar. Vinegar is awesome to remove water marks from the bowl.

Regarding showing symptoms when it's too late I disagree, although sometimes that is the case and they just die for no obvious reason, but most of the time they do show symptoms, but not everybody can recognize them and react accordingly, that is a difference between experienced keeper and not quite there yet person.
Please don't think Im judging you or blaming you in any way, stuff happens and frankly everybody has something they regret, me included, you just try to think of how to prevent this from happening. Mistakes don't define you, it's how you learn from them do.