Pacman flipping himself over - Please Help

[xghostmakerx]

Hello, well my Pacman has taken a turn for the worse. A couple of weeks ago he was sticking his rear legs out and sort of "spasming" and it was thought that he was not getting enough calcium and D3. He was also looking pretty thin. There was also a question as to his food which was primarily grubs and sometimes crickets. I've discontinued both of these foods as of a week ago and switched to 100% earth worms. He did eat the earthworms after i cut them into small-ish pieces and I thought that everything was ok. I also added a couple of plants to his enclosure. In hindsight this probably wasn't a good idea as they were just some fake poinsettia leaves that we had left over. Basically these were just used as cover in the enclosure to block some of the light from the bulbs. I'm not sure if these had anything to do with his problems or not but I've since taken those out two days ago. On Saturday (two days after the food switch and the new enclosure decorations) I found him laying on his back and lethargic. I promptly put him right side up and didn't think too much about it. An hour later he was on his back again and he turned himself over two more times that day. He's also taken to sitting on top of the substrate and not burrowing into it like usual. On Sunday he flipped himself over just once which was a good sign and yesterday (Monday) he did not flip himself over at all. I did change out his substrate yesterday although it was pretty new in his enclosure. While the enclosure was being cleaned, I put him in a shallow tupperware with some lukewarm treated water in it and he was actually pretty frisky. Moving himself around in the water like a figure skater. He seemed a lot better although right before I put him back in the enclosure he was doing something strange with his back legs. Kind of like he was kicking one up. Maybe he was trying to flip himself over again, I don't know. Well I put him back in the enclosure after cleaning and he just kind of sat there lethargic on top of the substrate not burrowing and this morning I found him flipped upside down again. Not sure where to really go from here. I'd like to help him out and help him get better but a heavy vet bill is not something that I can afford at this time. I did call our local vet and was told that they did not specialize in amphibians so they really couldn't help. Your assistance would be much appreciated. I've put some information below about his enclosure as well as a recent timeline of events.

1/6 Jabba the frog when taken out to tidy up the enclosure smasm'd in my hand. He stuck him legs straight out and kick of stuck that way for 20-30 seconds. I soaked him in some lukewarm treated water and he seemed better after this. Moving around as much as he typically does which is not a lot.
1/7 I PMd another member on here who suggested that the frog might be stressed out and that I should switch to earth worms for food.
1/8 I fed Jabba earth worms for the first time dusted with powder. Every other piece of worm was dusted. Had to hand feed him with tongs which is pretty normal for him. Also put in the poinsettia leaves in tank for cover
1/9 Jabba was fed more earth worms - Seems fine. Every other othe rpiece of worm was dusted
1/10 Found Jabba on back. He turned himself over 4x this day. I also removed the poinsettia leaves from the enclosure. No feeding
1/11 Found Jabba on back 1x. No feeding
1/12 Did not find Jabba on back but he's very lethargic. Not much movement although if I touch him he does move. No feeding. Changed out Substrate. Let Jabba soak in lukewarm water for a while. He seemed active although when I placed him back in the enclosure he was lethargic.
1/13 Today. Found Jabba on back first thing this AM and started this thread


1. Size of enclosure 10 gallon
2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences 1 pacman frog
3. Humidity 80-85%
4. Temperature 80 - 85 degrees
5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish. Tap water treated with drops
6. Materials used for substrate - the stuff in the blocks. Soaked with treated tap water
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials. - No plants now. Just a hollow log
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.
8. Main food source - earthworms now but used to be grubs
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often) - powdered, every other piece of food
10. Lighting - Two bulbs. One for daylight and one for night
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure. Two light bulbs
12. When is the last time he/she ate - 3 days ago
13. Have you found poop lately - No
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
15. Describe frog's symptoms and/or recent physical changes; to include it's ventral/belly area. Lethargic. Frog looks the same, just not mobile. Also, flipping himself on his back repeatedly.
16. How old is the frog - 6 months maybe
17. How long have you owned him/her - 5 months
18. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred - captive.
19. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats - just earth worms
20. How often the frog is handled - to be fed. Frog will not eat on its own. Has always been tong fed
21. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area - medium traffic area. In the corner of son's bed room
22. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc) - change water daily but frog never goes in there. Clean cage as it gets dirty.

[monster]

Hey, how long since the last time you found poo? If hes eating still that's good, but if he isn't pooping and still filling him self up we need to get him poop. Can you post a picture of the frog? If he will still eat crickets you can give them to him once a week or something so his food abit diverse. Use the worms as a staple but you throw the crickets in there everyonce in awhile to change things up, just make sure the crickets have been gut loaded 24 hours before. For this u can feed them carrots,lettuce and some crushed up cheerios. And I use this flukers gel stuff for them for water. You can keep your humidity around 80% doesn't need to be any higher, and I would find somewhere to put him in the house that is as low traffic as possible. I was reading an article this week about the husbandry of pacman frogs and it said stress is one of the major one causes of death in captive frogs. Don't know how much truth there is to it, but to me it makes sense. I don't know if poinsettia has something in that would affect the frog like that but I don't think that would cause him to flip over. You could probably just do calcium and d3 every other feeding, you don't have to give it to him every time. Are you using a multi vitamin at all?

[xghostmakerx]

I haven't found poo in lets say a week. I haven't fed him since he started flipping himself over. Not using any other vitamins other than the repti-calcium stuff that I was dusting the food with. That apparently has calcium and D3 in it. My wife just messaged me that his legs look puffy and he's bloated on one side. Hasn't flipped himself over today though. I'm willing to try quite a bit of things to help him out within reason. Another member suggested pedialyte and giving him a soak in a 1:10 ratio concentration for 20 minutes to give him some vitamins and I was going to try that when I get home from work today. Any ideas on how I can get him to go #2? He eats outside his enclosure and the substrate he has in there should't pose a problem.

Any other ideas before I pick up some orajel with 20% benzocaine? I'd rather not euthanize but if he is suffering and he's not going to get better I'd rather give him a painless release.

[monster]

A week not pooping isn't to worry some, sometimes these guys can hold it for like 2 weeks. Have you ever gave him a multi-vitamin well you have had him. The bloating on the one side, when you talk to your wife again ask her if the bloating has a clear watery look to it. This is what started to happen to my frog when the edema signs really kicked in. She had a very swollen leg and her whole left side was swollen and looked clear. Ask her if the bloat is hard or a soft squishy feel to it. Don't think this is whats happening because theres just similar signs that's all, mine didn't flip over. I would say that you are trying and doing everything you can for this guy so before you make that big decision I would try to pm the owner of the site and he should be able to tell you if that's the road to go or if you can help him. Or I really don't know if I should do this but I want the frog to get better, maybe try to pm a member on here named Lija or carlos-mentat. These are to people that are very knowledgeable about this type of frog and I know they would be more then willing to help if they can before you make that last decision. They helped me figure out what was wrong with my girl, and some others but these are the 2 I can think of off the top of my head.

[Thevacantface]

The symptoms just seem like some sort of toxic exposure. Let's explore the possible causes. First and foremost, you are treating his water per the instructions on the bottle, and using that water for his misting, soaking, and hydrating the substrate. Next, how often do you replace the substrate? If you have never replaced it, the soil is building up nitrates from his urine, given the timeframe you have owned him that would make sense. If you have been replacing it approximately monthly, my next question would be how you are cleaning his enclosure? If you are using any kind of chemical or soap, even the pet safe sprays, frogs are a bit different than other animals and those safe sprays can be harmful, you need to thoroughly rinse it out. Multiple times more than you would think. If everything has been correct to this point, you will need to start looking at your home environment. Do you use harsh cleaners in the house at all? Perfumes, air fresheners, scented candles can all be harmful too if used a lot. Possible mold in the air, how old is your son and how clean, just asking for possible mold or drug exposure from the kid being a dirty teenager.

[monster]

Thank you Thevacantface, I would have never thought scented candles and stuff. Like I always say, I think I learn something new on here every week. And now that you have pointed out the cleaners thing, I use that fluckers terrarium cleaner and yes I do a super rinse but do you recommend to ditch this product and clean another way. Don't have no problems at the moment but im going to clean my baby pacman on sunday because that's 2 weeks since I got him and just wondering if I should avoid using it. And again thanks for reading this post I have been trying to help him out but not expert yet and I really didn't want him to put down his frog if he didn't have to. That's why I went the emergency route and gave him some names to pm.

[Thevacantface]

The cleaners are fine, just rinse very well. Some people will do a quick rinse of things and think just because they don't see suds anymore that all the cleaner is gone. I use the animal safe cleaners on my terrariums, I just give a couple extra rinses with hot water for good measure.

[monster]

Thanks and ya I rinse the **** out of it and then even do a last rinse with r/o water just to make sure even the last bit of water that went in was clean as whistle. I have been talking abit with him this week and besides the vitamins not to much seems to off. His temp was 80 I suggested maybe bringing it up to 82. I suggested the nightcrawlers and some Vitamins, told him maybe repashy because from what I hear its really good. Suggested some plants for cover and today for him being lethargic I recommended maybe a 1:10 ratio pedilyte bath to give him some energy. And I also suggested to take him out of the room hes in and put him in a low traffic area. Just wanted to throw out there some of the things I have suggested.

[Thevacantface]

I'm not seeing anything off on the parameters of the enclosure, and those are all the correct steps to go through to get the frog back to healthy. That's why I'm suggesting other things to look out for, since the basics are correct, you just have to systematically move through all possibilities. There are only a few things that can go wrong with these guys, not to say they are a simple pet, but their afflictions and the causes are easily traceable. Toxin, stress, climate, and parasite are the big ones, and each will present a bit differently in the symptoms.

[monster]

I was reading an article the other day that was saying that stress is one of the leading causes of death in captive frogs.

[xghostmakerx]

Hi, we do replace the substrate at least monthly, sometimes more frequently than that. When I clean the cage I get the substrate out and just use treated water to clean the sides of the tank. No chemicals are used at all in the cleaning process. My wife stays at home with the kids and she runs a pretty tight ship and clean house so I don't think that is the issue. My sons just 8

Tonight when I got home from work I gave him three 20 minute soaks with a warm water and honey mixture to try to get him to poop and then three 20 minute pedialite and warm water soaks but no poop at all. A couple of times he moved like he was trying to go but nothing happened. Maybe I'm expecting too much out of him. After the soaks I did put him back in the case and he scooted under the log pretty well so he is mobile again.

One thing I wanted to ask people was how do you all regulate the humidity and temperature? I have two bulbs that I use for heat. One daylight one and one UV bulb. Both were made for animals so its not like I used some kitchen bulbs. For humidity, we just spray a couple of times per day. Its pretty variable and its been anywhere from 60-90 percent. Temp hovers around 80 but humidity is tough to control.

I've put some pics below. I didn't think he had a bulge on his side when I saw him tonight and I actually think he looks pretty good. If I can just get him to stop flipping over I think he'll pull through.

[xghostmakerx]

I posted information about the enclosure. What more information would be helpful?

[monster]

Hey, I think what the other person was asking was just if there is incents or scented candles burned around him a lot. If and when people clean around the enclosure what is being used and stuff. But if your son is 8 I don't think hes burning candles and stuff in his room. In the pictures on his right side it almost looks bumped out, is it? Or is it just the picture, and if it is when u feel it does it feel hard? If you look at the first 2 pics you can see what I mean. As for being swollen he doesn't look like he is to me, he just almost looks like there is something hard in his side. And when the other member asked if your applying the stuff to water per instructions is because to little is no good but then to much of it wouldn't be good either. Its like the saying I have seen used on here before, sometimes to much of something good can hurt you to.

[xghostmakerx]

when I was taking him out of the water I didn't notice any abnormalities with him and when I put him back in the cage he buried himself which is a lot more movement than he's been having. For the last couple of days he'd just site on top of the substrate when he wasn't flipping himself over.

As as far as the water goes, I've been putting 10 drops per gallon but was aways told that a few more drops wouldn't hurt

[Thevacantface]

Everything you are saying seems like it is on the money, I'm at a loss for what might be up with him. It does look like his right side is sticking out a bit more, just give it a gentle push, if you can feel something lumpy then he might be a little impacted, if not then he is fine digestively. You aren't using any wood finishing compounds, hobby glue, or solvents in the house are you? Is your wife using carpet cleaners or strong cleaners in that room or any adjacent room? I'm just running through any random possibility here.

Outside of those factors, the only thing I could think of would be the water source, the building materials in your house, or even the land it's built on. If any of those are questionable, symptoms will show up in a frog long before a human.

As for humidity control, I use a reptifogger, and mist if the dirt dries a bit. Just fair warning on the reptifogger though, if you use anything other than distilled water, it will quickly scale over.

[monster]

Im the same as you, kinda lost on what it could be because everything seems to be ok. He had pm me a couple times and there was maybe a couple things but nothing to serious. Like I suggested to bump the temp up from 80 to maybe 82 and even that I find 80 isn't to bad. That's why I asked him to post here because I cant think of anything. This may sound weird but can frogs get something like a cancer or something that could affect them and we wouldn't be able to tell unless brought to a vet? with edema and stuff there is kinda signs, do amphibians get stuff like that.

[xghostmakerx]

He seems a little better tonight but I guess we'll see how he is tomorrow. My bet is that there was something in those fake poinsettia leaves that affected him. It was the leaves and switching to worms at the same time when I noticed the issues.

[DVirginiana]

Hm.. With the leg spasms and flipping my first guess would be something off with the neurological system. With them having only had him 5 months and probably purchased as a baby, they may be looking at something congenital that is showing up with maturity (sometimes congenital issues will do that; the animal will be fine, then get sick when it hits maturity). I didn't read every word of this thread, but like has already been said, I don't see anything in the keeping that should cause this.
What gets me is that the frog is still eating apparently; if you were looking at an infection or organ failure, I'd expect them to stop eating...

[Thevacantface]

What kind of worms did you feed him and where did you get them?

[xghostmakerx]

Just an update on Jabba. This morning I went into the room he is kept in and he was on his back again. I flipped him over like usual but he kept his rear legs out behind him. I waited a few minutes and watched him push himself over to his back again. It was a really sad sight. Neurologically there was something wrong with him that would never have healed. I applied the oragel to his underside and he quietly passed away in just a minute or so. He didn't flinch or more when I applied the ointment, he just quickly and quietly went limp. This entire process was pretty devastating to me. I've kept reptiles and pets of many types my entire life but have never been in a position where I'm just lost on how to care for an animal. I'm sure there was something I was doing that inadvertently contributed to Jabba's condition but I'm not sure what it was. Probably won't get another frog for a while. I think we need to try some sort of a reptile that's a little more hardy and one that is more accepting to being handled semi-often.

I appreciate all of your feedback throughout my posts.