Environmental control questions

[EMCookjb]

I am new to the hobby and still very much in the research phase. I got a 60 gallon 24x24x24 tank for Christmas. I am looking at keeping a few dart frogs, maybe 6 or so, into a living viv. I have a couple question concerning the designing the hardscape, plumbing and other environment considers. From what I have read there seems to be a balance between ventilation and humidity and temperature.


1. Since the aquarium I have is solid glass, should incorporate ventilation fan(s), probably a computer fan, into the top of the living viv?


2. I am planning on incorporating a false bottom for drainage and maintaining humidity. Should I still add some sort of misting/rain system and/or a pond into the design?


3. Are there any specific recommendations for thermometers and hydrometers?


4. Would installing an automated system to control the viv environment be smart or recommended? Any thoughts?


Thank you for any information and recommendations.


John

[deranged chipmunk]

welcome to the very confusing and addicting hobby of frogging! i answer your questions best i can:

1. a fan is not a requirement, unless, you plan on keeping orchids in the tank, in which case, they would need a fan for air circulation. otherwise, it's an option. it will help keep your glass clear at the very least.

2. totally up to you. but if you have live plants in the tank, you will have to mist daily, at the very least. a pond is all your decision. the frogs won't require it, it is mainly for aesthetics.

3. i like using the cheapo glass thermometers for aquariums. as far as a hygrometer, if you are going to use one, do yourself a favor and get a decent digital one.

4. automated systems, like a hygrotherm, are really much better for species like tree frogs, but they can be helpful for darts. again, it's a personal decision. some people use them, some don't. some just use a mistking system on a timer. others (like me) prefer to hand mist.

[EMCookjb]

Thank you for the feedback, it is greatly appreciated. I was thinking along those lines but its always good to have other opinions, especially being new to the hobby. I want to be sure that I factor in as many factors into the planning as I can before I start putting this together.

John

[EMCookjb]

After having had some time to think about things, I have a couple of follow-up questions.

1. I liked the idea of circulation keeping the glass clear. Would a simple computer fan attached to the top work or should I incorporate a ducting system?

2. I am planning on incorporating a misting system and a false bottom. My thought process is to have a small "pond" that will allow me to adjust the water "table" within the vivarium. Thoughts?

I appreciate any feedback.

John

[deranged chipmunk]

A ducting system is not necessary. Although they can be helpful. And yes, a PC fan is fine. But you do not want a lot of air flow. Just a little bit. Too much air circulation and you risk drying the tank out.

Keep in mind, that we are talking about air circulation here, NOT ventilation. This is important to distinguish. You would just want to have air movement inside the tank. Not venting or bringing fresh air in.

I'm not following your second question. Would you mind elaborating please?


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[EMCookjb]

Thank you for reminding me about the distinction between ventilation and circulation. It seems circulation is good and ventilation is not as necessary. I have been looking at various computer fans with adjustable speeds. Between adjustable speeds and maybe incorporating a timer, I think that should provide good circulation.

The second question is a bit complex. I like the idea of having some water under a false bottom to help regulate temperature and humidity. I am worried about a couple of issues including "standing water", managing water levels under the false bottom and weather I need to "change" this water periodically. I have seen people that have a pond that they can use to siphon water from the bottom of the tank. Is this a good or bad idea. Just looking for some thoughts regarding water in the bottom of the tank.

Thank you very much for you insights.

John

[deranged chipmunk]

I've built one or two tanks with deep water features, utilizing a false bottom. I always treated everything under the false bottom as an aquarium. I used submersible filters and aquarium heaters. I also changed 50% of the water weekly, just as I did my planted aquariums. I always built in access tunnels and trap doors so that I could access the equipment, in case of a failure. Of course, there are many ways to go about this, but they worked for me at the time I built those tanks.

To elaborate a bit more on the water changes: you will accumulate waste in the water, and, if you have any live plants in the pond area, they will utilize essential trace minerals in the water that would need to be replenished, much like you would do in an aquarium. Short of it is, treat is as 2 separate sections working in unison, and you'll be fine


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[EMCookjb]

That is a very interesting concept that I can full understand. It sounds like the water part would need maintenance whether the "water table" is exposed (as a water feature) or not. Knowing now that I need to have access to the water, it sounds like exposing some of the water will allow me to easily access the water for maintenance. I am not sure whether or not I want to have any plants in the "pond" area but I hear what you are saying. I am trying to make this as maintenance "free" as possible because of work. I may have to disappear for several days without notice, especially during spring and summer. Lots to think about.

Again thank you for the information.

John

[deranged chipmunk]

No problem. If low maintenance is the goal, I would use a drainage layer of leca, gravel, growstone, whatever, with a tank drilled for drainage. I can post pics of one or two of mine this evening. And I am sure I can have other post theirs. They are all different, yet similar. Coupled with a misting system, the tank will run itself for several days with no issue.

The problem with a false bottom tank, is that if anything were to get under the false bottom and die, the ammonia spike would be uncontrollable until you return to correct the situation. Remember, even when plants die, there is still an ammonia spike.

Lots of things to think about.


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[EMCookjb]

I have thought about not doing a false bottom and doing a straight drainage layer. The problem is the part of drilling a hole in a $300+ aquarium in one shoot. Maybe I can run a "hidden" tube along the back corner that I can then use as a siphon or something similar.

I am looking at getting the MistKing basic system. I read somewhere that maintaining a constant 90%+ humidity can be a bad thing for both plants and frogs. I am looking at adopting Leuks for my tank. What are the actual temperature and humidity ranges for these types of pets?

John

[deranged chipmunk]

I had the same issue. I refuse to drill holes in my 125. I just couldn't bring myself to do it. Lol So I just went with hidden tubing. Well, as much hiding as you can do in a 4 sided, viewable tank.
Sponge under the drainage layer
Tubing up and out of the tank.

Valve at the end to prevent the siphon from being broken and I don't have to suck on the hose but the initial time.


Works like a charm.


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[EMCookjb]

Excellent pictures. Fortunately my vivarium will only have primary visibility from two adjoining angles. It will be possible to hide the piping. I love the use of the valves. You are selling me on not having a false bottom. The will allow me to easily slope the landscape from the back corner of the vivarium. How thick and extensive is the sponge layer and how often/if any do you need to replace the sponge layer?

I really appreciate the information and pictures. Its VERY motivating.

John

[deranged chipmunk]

I used a piece of pond filter sponge I had laying around. The sponge doesn't need to be thick, it just needs to prevent the tubing from clogging in case any substrate falls below the protective layer.

Replacing it? Good question. No clue. It won't break down, so that's not a concern. I check it periodically to see if anything is growing on it, which is doubtful since it gets no light. And the water gets filtered through the substrate, so I would guess a REALLY long time lol


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[EMCookjb]

Very interesting. It looks like a couple of inches and a good start for me thinking and planning. Do you put a filter layer (e.g. weed clothe) between the sponge and the rest of the "soil" layers?

John

[deranged chipmunk]

Yes. I normally use fiberglass screening, double layered. However, one of the other mods, lynn, turned a bunch of us onto using fiberglass quilt batting as well. The stuff used to make quilts. It is excellent and just as inexpensive as screening.




Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[EMCookjb]

How interesting. I have a bunch of weed cloth already and was already planning on double layering it. Would that still work? Can you give me an idea of the layering you would suggest? I really appreciate the help.

[deranged chipmunk]

I wouldn't double layer weed blocking material. It drains very slow as it it. doubling it may cause a swampy condition. Which could end up with a lot of unwanted nasty bacteria.

The layering is simple: drainage material, substrate barrier, substrate. Easy peasy


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[EMCookjb]

Makes sense. So you would suggest: Sponge layer, weed cloth, gravel, ABG, sphagnum moss, and lastly magnolia leaves?

[EMCookjb]

Thank you again for you advise and the information. On to the next stage.

[DigitalPunk]

The layers I use on all my drainage layer tanks is

Drainage material (rocks, leca, or any other light weight drainage material)
Quilt Batting
Window screen (single layer)
ABG or soil... I prefer ABG
Leaf liter.


I use to put some sphagnum between the soil and leaf liter, but with zero ventilation in a Dart tank the sphagnum is not needed and makes it harder for the frogs to get at any micro fauna you have in your tank.