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Thread: Pacman Sick

  1. #1
    KittenRD
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    Unhappy Pacman Sick

    Hi everyone, I am a new member to this forum, but have owned frogs for many years. My pacman has not been doing well. He is lethargic, emaciated looking, and has not eaten in a while. One clue is that I did see very tiny white worms in his water dish so I am thinking of parasites. Help!

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  3. #2
    Founder John's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacman Sick

    The only hope that frog has now is to be taken to an amphibian-savvy vet.
    Founder of Frogforum.net (2008) and Caudata.org (2001)

  4. #3
    100+ Post Member Ebony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacman Sick

    Welcome to the forum KittenRD. I hope all goes well with your Pacman. Good luck.

  5. #4
    Iratus ranunculus
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    Default Re: Pacman Sick

    Panacur. lots and lots of panacur. It is available online or at good pet stores for reasonably cheap. It is water soluble. I would recommend oral administration through the use of a catheter syringe or eye-dropper. The frog should swallow or absorb it.

  6. #5
    KittenRD
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    Default Re: Pacman Sick

    Quote Originally Posted by Iratus ranunculus View Post
    Panacur. lots and lots of panacur. It is available online or at good pet stores for reasonably cheap. It is water soluble. I would recommend oral administration through the use of a catheter syringe or eye-dropper. The frog should swallow or absorb it.
    Thanks a bunch I found one place online that sells it by the mL. How much do you think I should order? Thanks!

  7. #6
    Paul Rust
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    Default Re: Pacman Sick

    Quote Originally Posted by Iratus ranunculus View Post
    Panacur. lots and lots of panacur. It is available online or at good pet stores for reasonably cheap. It is water soluble. I would recommend oral administration through the use of a catheter syringe or eye-dropper. The frog should swallow or absorb it.
    I concur. You can also drop it on his back. If you can get him to eat you can use the powder form and dust his food. After you get clear of this emergency you can then treat once a month to keep parasites under control. Remember though, you don't want to kill them all.

  8. #7
    KittenRD
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    Default Re: Pacman Sick

    Quote Originally Posted by NW Amphibian Rescue View Post
    I concur. You can also drop it on his back. If you can get him to eat you can use the powder form and dust his food. After you get clear of this emergency you can then treat once a month to keep parasites under control. Remember though, you don't want to kill them all.
    Thanks. Check! That makes sense to keep some normal parasites like we need our natural flora in our guts. Do you know about dosage by any chance?

  9. #8
    Cebby75
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    Default Re: Pacman Sick

    Best of luck to you, I hope he/she sees it through!

  10. #9
    Paul Rust
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    Default Re: Pacman Sick

    Quote Originally Posted by KittenRD View Post
    Thanks. Check! That makes sense to keep some normal parasites like we need our natural flora in our guts. Do you know about dosage by any chance?
    25mg per kg of body weight if you use the powder. That is just a tiny amount disolved in very little water. I prefer to dust the food. I don't know dosage with the oral suspension.

  11. #10
    Kurt
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    Default Re: Pacman Sick

    Quote Originally Posted by NW Amphibian Rescue View Post
    If you can get him to eat you can use the powder form and dust his food.
    I have been talking to Greg Mertz DVM about this method. He says that by using this method, the frogs are not getting a proper dosage and this could lead to drug resistant parasites. He was going to write something up about it for me, but has yet to do it.

  12. #11
    Paul Rust
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    Default Re: Pacman Sick

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt View Post
    I have been talking to Greg Mertz DVM about this method. He says that by using this method, the frogs are not getting a proper dosage and this could lead to drug resistant parasites. He was going to write something up about it for me, but has yet to do it.
    I agree with him 100% however, I have yet to see anyone take the position that benzimidazole class dewormers should not be used as a parasite control method, particularly when used in a 3 week rotation. In fact, research is starting to show the beginnings of ivermectin resistant worm strains. There has traditionally been a problem because there are no amphibian specific remedies, otherwise we wouldn't be modifying canine dosages for use on our frogs and I still cannot go into a pet shop and buy a box of amphibian "Worm Be Gone". I use and recommend this method because when I researched parasite control in amphibians I always ended up with two options, either dust the food or administer orally. Dusting is the most common recommendation and the easiest to do as a maintenance method but as you said, it is impossible to control dosage. This is known and that's why any time this method is recommended it states to dust for three consecutive feedings to minimize the risk of resistant parasites. The oral method would be the preferred method except that at a dosage of 25mg/kg it is extremely difficult for most hobbyists to get the correct dosage for a dart frog that weighs less than 3 grams, I have trouble and I have the proper equipment. Sure you can do the math but when you put it into practice you are literally trying to split a drop of medicine into such small parts that you wouldn't know if the animal actually received any at all, so again you are little better than guessing at dosage and probably overdosing. In the end you are still left with two options, do nothing and let your frog die or do something that has been proven to work even with the outside chance of resistant parasites. I do a fecal exam on all my enclosures every month to monitor parasites and always have a good outcome but I'm not so arrogant to think that a better way is not out there. If he can come up with a reliable prep and dosage that would give our animals the proper amount, that would be great and i would put it into use immediately but so far even the best amphibian husbandry manuals haven't solved this problem as far as I know. This really is too bad because other than stress, parasites are the most common problem we deal with and I would love to be able to throw a proven remedy out there when someone has this problem. Sorry for the long response but I have beat my head against a wall for a long time trying to find a better way, I hope Greg Mertz DVM can offer not a paper on drug resistance, but an alternative to the treatments that we use currently. Please don't take this response the wrong way, I am not defending the way I treat for parasites and wish a better way was available. I have a personal account where I have only lost 2 frogs in 10 years from parasites. Both deaths happenned while trying other methods. I lost an A.moreletii a few months ago while trying to treat it orally. I lost a Cobalt Tinc a few weeks ago trying the absorption through the back method. The Tinc death was the kicker for me because I quarantined him for treatment and dusted the flies for his tankmates, all the others survived. This months fecal exams for all my animals was normal, as usual.
    Last edited by Paul Rust; July 2nd, 2010 at 09:30 PM.

  13. #12
    Paul Rust
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    Default Re: Pacman Sick

    KittenRD, how is your pacman doing?

  14. #13

    Default Re: Pacman Sick

    Hmm sounds to me you are trying to solve a problem that best be left for the professionals(amphibian-wise vet). Take it to a vet, explain to the vet what is going on with your pet. Most likely it has parasites. But if its harboring parasites it could have something else too! So its better to be safe than sorry.

    I strongly URGE you to take your pacman to the vet. I mean the people in this forum have quite the knowledge of an expert. But I defenitely know we cant give a full diagnose to a frog we havent even given an exam too. I mean it could have something else. All Iam saying, when in doubt the vet can help you the most. I wouldnt try to designate your own medication to your animal, just so you can be on the safe side.

  15. #14
    Paul Rust
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    Default Re: Pacman Sick

    Quote Originally Posted by Deku View Post
    Hmm sounds to me you are trying to solve a problem that best be left for the professionals(amphibian-wise vet). Take it to a vet, explain to the vet what is going on with your pet. Most likely it has parasites. But if its harboring parasites it could have something else too! So its better to be safe than sorry.

    I strongly URGE you to take your pacman to the vet. I mean the people in this forum have quite the knowledge of an expert. But I defenitely know we cant give a full diagnose to a frog we havent even given an exam too. I mean it could have something else. All Iam saying, when in doubt the vet can help you the most. I wouldnt try to designate your own medication to your animal, just so you can be on the safe side.
    I recommend that anyone with the mind to keep a large collection of amphibians learn to do fecal exams and treat for parasites. Parasites are easy to control if you monitor your animals. If you partner this with sound husbandry you should very rarely need a vet.

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