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Thread: Help with 137 baby Gray Tree Frogs

  1. #1
    DEW
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    Question Help with 137 baby Gray Tree Frogs

    Hello Everyone,

    New post now that I know what to ask.

    I got my order from Josh's frogs, they said to separate the babies into groups of 20, I did and now I finally know how many I actually have. 137! That is counting the remaining 9 tadpoles and the three froglets that should be getting out of the water within the next couple days.

    Questions are;

    *Twenty in a large funariunm ( Exo Terra's version of a critter keeper) is not too bad right now but when should I give them more space?

    *All I have is fruit flies. I have 3 active cultures, I am just getting ready to start my first two fruit fly culture kits, I got 20, Zack said to start two every 2 weeks. Will that be enough?
    I did collect some termites, they were from our property and we use no pesticides ever. I read termites are a good food source, this time of year they are the only wild bugs I know I can feed.

    *I can't get pinhead crickets, when I placed my order they were out and a couple other places said it was too cold to ship right now. Local Pet shops have crickets that are far to big.
    Anyone know where I can get some now?!

    * A
    t the rate they are eating fruit flies should I be raising crickets too? Ordering them could get really expensive fast.

    *
    At what rate will Grays grow? They are small now because they were a late clutch, some no bigger than my pinkie fingernail.


    *
    What is the best way to handle them without hurting them? I was my hands like crazy before and after, but they are so little I am afraid of hurting them. I will be cleaning the enclosures daily so that is a lot of handling.



    And last but not least,

    * Does anyone know where I can get an ultra-fine screen ( like that used in the lids of the cultures by The Fruit Fly Company)? Or some other ultra fine mesh? Fruit flies are getting Everywhere! I need something to put on top of the enclosures that will breath.


    Thank you for reading and any help will be greatly appreciated.

    ***(for anyone who did not read previous post, "Crazy as a box of frogs" and "Tons of froglets and tadpoles" or something like that.

    I did not get these guys on purpose.
    I had a couple thousand tadpoles in my pool that I started feeding when I found them, They grew up and went off on their own.

    I pressure washed the pool and got it all cleaned out hoping for a couple months of use but made the mistake of leaving a couple inches of water in it. the next evening there were tons more eggs.

    A lot of the second group left on their own and then they just started dying when they got to the point that they should have left but the pool temp had dropped from 55 to under 33 degrees really fast.

    Because they were dying I brought the rest in. At that point they were mostly tadpoles with just back legs.


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  3. #2
    100+ Post Member irThumper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help with 137 baby Gray Tree Frogs

    As far as ultra fine mesh goes, that I'm not sure, but on my 5 gal cricket house I use a flour sack towel (find at Walmart) beneath the screen lid and nothing has gotten out of there. (This pic was taken before I started feeding Fluker's dry high calcium cricket chow.)

    Name:  CRICKET CONDO FINAL.jpg
Views: 163
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    Mom to these fine frogs!
    4.4.0 White's tree frogs (Litoria caerulea): Sir Honey Lime, Bok & Choi, Martha, Shirley, Leapin' Loo and Ping & Pong; 0.2.1 Amazon Milk Frogs (Trachycephalus resinifictrix): Otto & Echo and Pip-Squeak aka Tiny
    2.0.0 South American Bird Poo Frogs (Hyla marmorata): Ribbit & Rupert


  4. #3
    DEW
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    Default Re: Help with 137 baby Gray Tree Frogs

    That's a good Idea and cricket food recommendation, a 2fer.
    Thanks

  5. #4
    Moderator LilyPad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help with 137 baby Gray Tree Frogs

    I would pick a warm day and release as many as possible. Keep in mind, they live pretty far north, so they should survive in your weather. By the weekend, you should be up in the 50's, I'd release them then.

    I only say this because they grow fairly fast and there will be no way to properly care for them.
    2.0.3 Hyla versicolor "Eastern Gray Tree Frogs"
    2.2.0 Agalychnis callidryas "Red Eyed Tree Frogs"

    0.0.3 Dendrobates auratus "Turquoise and Bronze"
    0.0.1 Anaxyrus fowleri "Fowler's Toad"



  6. #5

    Default Re: Help with 137 baby Gray Tree Frogs

    Hi. I'm posting because I was in a similar situation to you this summer, although I only had 58 Grey tadpoles/froglets. To be perfectly honest, this number was more than I could comfortably handle, and I had to reduce pretty quickly by releasing the largest ones, which you will not be able to do until spring.

    I can tell you that you are going to need a LOT more than two fruitfly cultures. I would start making more cultures right away; like maybe a couple dozen of them, and continue to make new ones at a steady rate. You may want to order a few more to start out with. You're also going to need pinhead crickets, which you will need to order in the thousands. I ordered mine from Ghann's Cricket Farm. While they won't guarantee live arrival if the temps get below 25F, they will still ship. They ship from Augusta GA, which shouldn't be too bad for you, and you can increase the chance of live arrival by picking them up at the local Fed Ex hub, rather than waiting for home delivery. You will want to dust all of their food with alternating vitamin and Calcium/D3 supplements.

    I hate to tell you this, but these frogs will eat you out of house and home. If you can collect a whole lot of termites, that should mitigate it somewhat.

    With my babies (which admittedly were larger than yours) I found that 8 of them in one Kritter keeper was too many, once they were fully morphed, and I started moving them to ten gallon tanks as soon as their tails were completely gone.

    This is a picture of the type of setup that I used to morph the tadpoles. Name:  tads08.jpg
Views: 203
Size:  182.1 KB I put together the ten gallon setups along similar principles, with a gravel substrate covered in sheet moss (from Josh's Frogs), climbing branches collected locally, and cuttings of Pothos, which root into the gravel and start growing very rapidly. With this type of setup, I've found that I didn't need to clean it all that frequently, certainly not everyday, and I didn't have to move or handle the froglets to do it (in the big tanks). I basically just sprayed things down really well, and did partial water changes, which you can do with a turkey baster. I keep water over the entire gravel substrate, but with only a small section of the gravel shallow enough to go below the water level and provide a small pond. To keep fruitflies from escaping, I used flexible fiberglass insect screening of the type you can get in rolls at a hardware store. The Kritter keeper lids will snap on over them easily. For the ten gallons, I put the hook side of a strip of velcro all around the tank, which holds the mesh in place pretty well. This way, you don't have to leave the entire tank uncovered while you do things inside it. I then kept a standard screen tank lid over the mesh. I still have my remaining six frogs in a pair of ten gallon tanks set up in this fashion, though I'm in the process of getting an Exo Terra 18X18X24 set up for them.

    When I was at my peak number, I had five tanks set up like this, with about a dozen froglets in each one.

    I honestly can't imagine trying to do 137 Grey froglets, which is more than twice the number that I had. It felt like total insanity with only 58 of them, and this was during the summer, so I was able to release them as I felt that they were ready.

    You might want to seriously consider trying to find a reputable dealer to take most of your froglets off your hands at some point. You also might want to try posting in the For Sale/Trade forum here, as I think there are frequently people around here who are interested in Greys.

    You've really got your hands full, and I wish you the best of luck.
    0.0.6 Hyla versicolor
    7.0.0 Dendropsophus leucophyllatus
    2.0.0 Homo sapiens sapiens (K & C, the *other* froglets)

    "Cleansed in the finest quality spring water, lightly killed, and then sealed in a succulent Swiss quintuple smooth treble cream milk chocolate envelope, and lovingly frosted with glucose."

  7. This member thanks Crunchy Frog for this post:


  8. #6
    DEW
    Guest

    Default Re: Help with 137 baby Gray Tree Frogs

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunchy Frog View Post
    Hi. I'm posting because I was in a similar situation to you this summer, although I only had 58 Grey tadpoles/froglets. To be perfectly honest, this number was more than I could comfortably handle, and I had to reduce pretty quickly by releasing the largest ones, which you will not be able to do until spring.

    I can tell you that you are going to need a LOT more than two fruitfly cultures. I would start making more cultures right away; like maybe a couple dozen of them, and continue to make new ones at a steady rate. You may want to order a few more to start out with. You're also going to need pinhead crickets, which you will need to order in the thousands. I ordered mine from Ghann's Cricket Farm. While they won't guarantee live arrival if the temps get below 25F, they will still ship. They ship from Augusta GA, which shouldn't be too bad for you, and you can increase the chance of live arrival by picking them up at the local Fed Ex hub, rather than waiting for home delivery. You will want to dust all of their food with alternating vitamin and Calcium/D3 supplements.

    I hate to tell you this, but these frogs will eat you out of house and home. If you can collect a whole lot of termites, that should mitigate it somewhat.

    With my babies (which admittedly were larger than yours) I found that 8 of them in one Kritter keeper was too many, once they were fully morphed, and I started moving them to ten gallon tanks as soon as their tails were completely gone.

    This is a picture of the type of setup that I used to morph the tadpoles. Name:  tads08.jpg
Views: 203
Size:  182.1 KB I put together the ten gallon setups along similar principles, with a gravel substrate covered in sheet moss (from Josh's Frogs), climbing branches collected locally, and cuttings of Pothos, which root into the gravel and start growing very rapidly. With this type of setup, I've found that I didn't need to clean it all that frequently, certainly not everyday, and I didn't have to move or handle the froglets to do it (in the big tanks). I basically just sprayed things down really well, and did partial water changes, which you can do with a turkey baster. I keep water over the entire gravel substrate, but with only a small section of the gravel shallow enough to go below the water level and provide a small pond. To keep fruitflies from escaping, I used flexible fiberglass insect screening of the type you can get in rolls at a hardware store. The Kritter keeper lids will snap on over them easily. For the ten gallons, I put the hook side of a strip of velcro all around the tank, which holds the mesh in place pretty well. This way, you don't have to leave the entire tank uncovered while you do things inside it. I then kept a standard screen tank lid over the mesh. I still have my remaining six frogs in a pair of ten gallon tanks set up in this fashion, though I'm in the process of getting an Exo Terra 18X18X24 set up for them.

    When I was at my peak number, I had five tanks set up like this, with about a dozen froglets in each one.

    I honestly can't imagine trying to do 137 Grey froglets, which is more than twice the number that I had. It felt like total insanity with only 58 of them, and this was during the summer, so I was able to release them as I felt that they were ready.

    You might want to seriously consider trying to find a reputable dealer to take most of your froglets off your hands at some point. You also might want to try posting in the For Sale/Trade forum here, as I think there are frequently people around here who are interested in Greys.

    You've really got your hands full, and I wish you the best of luck.
    Wow! Thanks for all your advise, I really appreciate the time you took.

    I did get the Exo Terra 18x18x24, I just have not set it up yet. Plus I found information on converting aquariums to vertical enclosures for arboreal frogs. I really don't want to release them now, they are small for their age because they hatched so late. I ordered from Josh's Frogs as well and was told they probably would not survive if released. I was also told by trThumper? that"Hyla versicolor listed as Significantly Rare by the N.C. Natural Heritage Program" So I really want to give them a fighting chance. I looked it up and she was right.

    I have been releasing groups as they matured but did not attempt to leave the pool I set up something similar to what you did ( yours was much nicer) that allowed to leave the water when they were ready. Then after feeding them a few days and waiting for a forecast of a fairly warm week I released them in large groups of 2-300., a total of about 1,100. give or take.

    Most of what was left when it got really cold were tadpoles. So they are the ones that are here now. I am now reaching your conclusion, after feeding them tonight, I agree I am going to need a lot more bugs. I am checking into how difficult and time consuming it would be to raise crickets.

    I am such a softie as soon as I started watching them I just became so protective of them, they are adorable and fascinating to watch. If I do come to the conclusion that they are at risk because I can not care for them properly I will definably look for another solution.

  9. #7
    Moderator LilyPad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help with 137 baby Gray Tree Frogs

    Chances are, you have cope's grey tree frogs which are very common in north carolina. There is no way to tell for sure whether you have copes or eastern (common) grey tree frogs unless they start calling or you do a genetic test. Considering how widespread the copes are in NC, I would find it highly likely that's what you have. They breed all the way through August in NC, and can take up to 2.5 months to morph depending on the weather...which would put you into November.

    There is no way that you'll be able to care for that amount of them that will give them a better chance of thriving than releasing them on a warm day. They can survive sub zero temps, they'll survive weather with daytime highs in the 50's. Unless you plan on getting about a thousand+ gallons worth of tanks and spending I can only imagine how much on feeders, they will not thrive in your care and will probably start dying off rapidly at some point. I have 8 adult frogs, 4 gray tree frogs and 4 red eyed tree frogs...I spend about $5 a week on food for them. That's not much, but depending on your food source, you could end up spending $50-100 a week just to keep them well fed.

    You could always call your local wildlife resource center and get advice from them too, see if there are places you can send them. I'm not sure what your laws are, but most states have laws regarding how many you can collect and how many you can keep. Most states also do not allow you to sell native frogs, but again, I do not know the North Carolina laws regarding this so you would have to look them up yourself.
    2.0.3 Hyla versicolor "Eastern Gray Tree Frogs"
    2.2.0 Agalychnis callidryas "Red Eyed Tree Frogs"

    0.0.3 Dendrobates auratus "Turquoise and Bronze"
    0.0.1 Anaxyrus fowleri "Fowler's Toad"



  10. #8
    DEW
    Guest

    Default Re: Help with 137 baby Gray Tree Frogs

    Quote Originally Posted by LilyPad View Post
    Chances are, you have cope's grey tree frogs which are very common in north carolina. There is no way to tell for sure whether you have copes or eastern (common) grey tree frogs unless they start calling or you do a genetic test. Considering how widespread the copes are in NC, I would find it highly likely that's what you have. They breed all the way through August in NC, and can take up to 2.5 months to morph depending on the weather...which would put you into November.

    They are common grays. They have recordings of the calls on the NC website and I recorded them in my pool, same call.


    There is no way that you'll be able to care for that amount of them that will give them a better chance of thriving than releasing them on a warm day. As I am sure you are aware, frogs are pretty low on the food chain and have an abundance of predators in these woods. The chance of their survival is not great to begin with. They can survive sub zero temps, they'll survive weather with daytime highs in the 50's.Weather is only one of the factors I considered in deciding if I should or should not attempt this. Unless you plan on getting about a thousand+ gallons worth of tanks I already had some tanks, purchased a Exo Terra arboreal terrarium plus numerous funariums. I am going to pick 2 more Of the Exo Terra from one person on Craig's list and 4- 40 gal. tanks from another for a tiny fraction of the original cost. I have all of the stuff to do the conversions on the 40 gal tanks. and spending I can only imagine how much on feeders,I just made up 4 more fruit fly cultures and am going to breed the crickets. they will not thrive in your care probably start dying off rapidly at some point.I almost have to take offense at that. I have done animal rehab for years (Just never frogs) and know it is a daunting task. I have 8 adult frogs, 4 gray tree frogs and 4 red eyed tree frogs... 8 frogs? wow. I spend about $5 a week on food for them. That's not much, but depending on your food source, you could end up spending $50-100 a week just to keep them well fed.Feeding them is not a problem.I am feeding a feral cat colony of over 40 at an old barn not to far from me, they were part of our TNR program, cats eat much more than frogs especially in the winter. We just caught them all and I wormed and vaccinated them myself. I have 11 cats of my own, 14 fosters and am bottle feeding a litter of 5.We had a large percentage of foster parents bail on us this year, which is the only reason I have so many at the moment.Believe it or not I am footing the bill for all of them myself since donations have been sparse.With info form Koret/UC Davis shelter medicine program and a little creativity I am able to source most of our medications at significant savings and our local vet helps out when she can.

    You could always call your local wildlife resource center and get advice from them too, see if there are places you can send them. I have contacted the WNC Nature Center, I just joined Frogwatch USA.I'm not sure what your laws are, but most states have laws regarding how many you can collect and how many you can keep. Most states also do not allow you to sell native frogs, As far as collecting them, they might have a hard time making that case since they were born in my pool, when I first began my search on what to do with a pool full of frogs I found endless sites that explained how to kill them. Instead I took on the task of buying and adding aquatic plants to the pool, and finding what the proper diet is for that species of frog. Changed out a third of the pools water at least once a week ( that's a hell of a lot of water and time) I cleaned out pine needles and snails etc. Then released a total of over 3,000.little frogs far more than would have survived to that stage because of the lack of predators in my pool.but again, I do not know the North Carolina laws regarding this so you would have to look them up yourself.
    NC has one of the worst track records on animal protection of most of the country, being a state where major industry involve livestock production, they have heavily invested in lobbyist to keep animal protection laws to a minimum afraid they might somehow negatively impact the commercial industry.

    In conclusion;

    I do appreciate your concern for these little guys and value your input. However I think you may be making assumptions without all of the facts.

    I came to this forum for information on how to go about doing this responsibly, not reasons why I should not even try.
    But again I do value all feedback and appreciate the time you took to read and respond to my post.


  11. #9
    100+ Post Member irThumper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help with 137 baby Gray Tree Frogs

    Via DEW: "As far as collecting them, they might have a hard time making that case since they were born in my pool, when I first began my search on what to do with a pool full of frogs I found endless sites that explained how to kill them."
    I have to say that is sad I can understand if they are talking about an invasive species (like Bullfrogs here, and Cuban tree frogs (etc), down South) but Grays? Copes, common or otherwise?

    I would look for other means to saving them myself. I do agree with releasing as many as possible while the weather still allows, just make sure they are all as well fed and healthy as possible. Grays can survive being frozen, as per this article Can Frogs Survive Being Frozen? Also, while it's hard to think of these little guys being predator chow, that is something that is a fact of life & part of what conservationists need to take with the job; other species need to survive too, and frogs are an important part of the food chain. I personally am rooting for the frogs though, lol.

    I trust that you know your limit, having experience already with rehabbing other species. I don't think Amy meant to suggest otherwise, she just wanted you to know what to expect. From what I've read I believe you do and will proceed accordingly. I hope that you are able to succeed with the froggle rescue project, and that you hopefully find some other frog fans there who are willing to help assist in frog fostering... at least I hope you have better luck in that area than with the feral kitties! We have our problems with that here as well, but at least a new group has joined with other local organizations to help the homeless cat populations. I designed a poster for free use to those who work toward getting strays and ferals adopted out (it can also be used as a coloring page, so is kid friendly) so if you would like to use it to help with your kitty project you are more than welcome... maybe I need to design one for frogs as well, lol... Homeless Kitty Sketch Turned Poster by IrThumper on deviantART
    Mom to these fine frogs!
    4.4.0 White's tree frogs (Litoria caerulea): Sir Honey Lime, Bok & Choi, Martha, Shirley, Leapin' Loo and Ping & Pong; 0.2.1 Amazon Milk Frogs (Trachycephalus resinifictrix): Otto & Echo and Pip-Squeak aka Tiny
    2.0.0 South American Bird Poo Frogs (Hyla marmorata): Ribbit & Rupert


  12. #10
    Moderator LilyPad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help with 137 baby Gray Tree Frogs

    I made my assumptions based on the facts that you've given in this thread. I do not have a crystal ball to know what else is going on. Froglets morph, many of them die, that's why they lay hundreds of eggs at a time. I do not think it is responsible to take frogs from the wild and then not release them when conditions are right, regardless of where they were found. I did not say anything to be mean or give offense, but presented you with information regarding what kind of task you've taken on, what is needed to keep them alive, and how unlikely that is. Many newbie frog owners have a hard time keeping 1 or 2 frogs alive, 137 is significantly more. I do not appreciate your sarcasm and snark but do wish you luck in your venture only because I think it would be a shame to have a majority of those frogs die after you rescued them as tads.
    2.0.3 Hyla versicolor "Eastern Gray Tree Frogs"
    2.2.0 Agalychnis callidryas "Red Eyed Tree Frogs"

    0.0.3 Dendrobates auratus "Turquoise and Bronze"
    0.0.1 Anaxyrus fowleri "Fowler's Toad"



  13. #11
    100+ Post Member irThumper's Avatar
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    Default Re: Help with 137 baby Gray Tree Frogs

    *Gulp* Amy you and I cross posted... *tip toes out now*...
    Mom to these fine frogs!
    4.4.0 White's tree frogs (Litoria caerulea): Sir Honey Lime, Bok & Choi, Martha, Shirley, Leapin' Loo and Ping & Pong; 0.2.1 Amazon Milk Frogs (Trachycephalus resinifictrix): Otto & Echo and Pip-Squeak aka Tiny
    2.0.0 South American Bird Poo Frogs (Hyla marmorata): Ribbit & Rupert


  14. #12
    DEW
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    Default Re: Help with 137 baby Gray Tree Frogs

    "I have to say that is sad I can understand if they are talking about an invasive species (like Bullfrogs here, and Cuban tree frogs (etc), down South) but Grays? Copes, common or otherwise?"

    Isn't it though? I am amazed at how many people have absolutely no regard for nature, can not see how interconnected we all are and for that matter seem to have no curiosity about the world around them. Quite a few sites refer to tadpoles as pest, there was even one woman who wanted to know how to get rid of the tadpoles in her pond? One post said " how do I kill the tadpoles in my pool cover without ruining the cover?"

    I love your poster, we have such a hard time with cats. Forest City, Rutherfordton, Spindale ( the Towns around Lake Lure) are economically depresses and we have one animal "Shelter" built in the 60's and still has Drop boxes so people can just put there dog or cat through a slot that leads to a concrete box where they may stay all weekend, cement floor with a drain and no way for the animal to get off they cement, cold in the winter, sweltering in the summer. 96% of all cats that go in come out in a black plastic garbage bag, so the "shelter" is conveniently located right next to the landfill. The cats are held for the mandatory 72 hours in one converted dog run called the " Feral Run" most of the cats and kittens are far from feral they just don't want to be bothered with trying to place them in homes. The things I have seen there... Sickening.

    On a more upbeat subject, I love your Pups, we used to have Collies and Shelties. And, your pictures really make me miss my goats.

    If you have art and frog interest here is a link you might like.
    Lampwork Frogs on Pinterest | 159 Pins

    Sharon Peters site
    SmartAssGlass Home Page
    She has some really cute frog beads and she really is a smart ***.


    Corina always has some frog beads, near the end of the homepage she has a scuba diving frog that is adorable.
    http://www.corinabeads.com/pages/availablebeads.

    I made a bunch of frog beads for the beads of hope project, I never took any pictures of them. It is a program run by lampwork glass artist who make beads, we donate specially made beads for kids with cancer. If a child goes through a scary procedure they get to pick a bead ( it might just be a shot) for something really scary like chemo they get a purple heart bead or any other bead of their choice. It took us awhile before we learned that the beautiful floral and technically challenging beads were the last ones picked by the kids, they much preferred the hotdogs, cupcakes, worms, frogs.... Duh.

    Is Jelly bean actually black?

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    Default Re: Help with 137 baby Gray Tree Frogs

    OK, in answer to your original question about food, try getting the largest crickets you can find and getting them to lay eggs. there are some great cricket breeding guides online. in about 10 days, you will have thousands of teeny tiny crickets - about the size of small fruitflies. this is the only way I know of to feed that many frogs crickets.
    1.3.0 Amazon Milk Frogs
    8.2.0 Vietnamese Mossy Frogs
    2.2.6 theloderma asperum
    3.0.0 theloderma licin
    2.1.0 golden mantella
    3.2.0 red eyed tree frogs
    3.6.0 Andean marsupial frogs
    0.0.6 starry night Reed frogs
    0.0.5 hyperolius sp.
    1.2.0 nectophryne afra
    2.1.0 hyperolius riggenbachi hieroglyphus
    3.0.0 Mitchelli Reed frogs
    3.3.0 afrixalus fornasinii
    1.2.0 Vietnamese flying frog
    2.2.0 bufo punctatus

  16. This member thanks lnikkiy for this post:


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