New White's tree froggie died. Help!!! Quarantine advice needed...

[teslas intern]

Hail folks. So today was a horrible day, I woke up to a dead frog. I bought the frog at Petco on Monday, and I noticed last night it was much thinner than its partner, and seemed disinterested in food (also purchased on Monday). This morning it was stiff and sprawled, and not breathing. It occurs to me I should have taken a photo, but in my distraught-ness I did not. At any rate they did replace the frog for me, but I have no idea why it spontaneously died, and I'm taking no chances. Both frogs are being removed from the tank, and put into separate quarantine boxes, upon completion of tree bark sterilization, which is ongoing. Questions as follows...

Firstly why did my frog die?

Possible theories:

The peat moss I had in the bottom of the tank was Miracle Grow brand, and was probably laced with fertilizer. I feel it is possible this may have contributed to the decline of the frog, does anyone know this to be true?

I had several pieces of tree bark that had been hot glued to the sides of the tank. This is fairly common practice for tarantula enclosures, but I found one of the frogs partially wrapped in a hot glue "stringer". I of course panicked, unwrapped the frog, and removed all of the bark. One of the frogs was dead two days later, I am uncertain if it was the one who was wrapped in the stringer. Is it possible the frog was impacted with a hot glue string?

The tank had a layer of native moss on the bottom, which had some pine needles in it. I'm wondering if the pine had some sort of terpenes in it, or if the frog accidentally ingested one and got injured.

And lastly it is possible it was just a sick frog, from a crowded tank in a pet store. I should mention the other frogs (the replacement and the old one) are both acting normal, one molted tonight, I'm not sure which one...

Secondly are my quarantine tanks acceptable?

The rigs I am building now, are simple plastic bins, each one is 4.1 gallons. Is that too small for a 2.5 inch nose to vent frog for temporary quarters? I will be drilling holes in the lid, or cutting a large hole and screening it in, when I get a dremmel wheel probably on Monday. I'm not sure what to do for heating right now, I have a single ceramic heat lamp, and a single "rainforest" UVB CFL, it will be difficult to do both tanks with those, I can buy more stuff if necessary. For a "water bowl" I have a shallow (1/2 inch deep about 6 inches long 4 inches wide) leaf shaped dish, it is labeled as microwave and dishwasher safe, which I assume means it is intended for serving food, so I assume it will be Ok for a water bowl. I guess I'll be using paper towels for substrate until I find a proper solution...

So thirdly... I'm ready for a scolding...

Is there anything else I need to know, any red flags jumping out? What did I do wrong, what did I miss? I do not want to lose another buddy...

Thanks in advance guys...

[teslas intern]

Also I should note we use well water, which is run through a water softener. This water has never given me problems with the frog I had years ago (a gray tree frog) but I didn't treat it with anything, and these frogs may be more fragile, so I suppose that it too is suspect. Our water has sulfur in it, but again, that was never an issue before. This water also raises several thousand toad-poles from egg to toads in our golfish pond, albeit outdoors, getting diluted with rainwater and being purified by ridiculous pond plants... In case that is a possible issue, I figured I'd mention it...

[Strider18]

Sorry about your frog Can you please answer these questions and highlight them if possible? It may help us determine what happened.

1. Size of enclosure
2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences
3. Humidity
4. Temperature
5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
6. Materials used for substrate
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.
8. Main food source
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often)
10. Lighting
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
12. When is the last time he/she ate
13. Have you found poop lately
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
15. Describe frog's symptoms and/or recent physical changes; to include it's ventral/belly area.
16. How old is the frog
17. How long have you owned him/her
18. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred
19. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats
20. How often the frog is handled
21. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
22. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)

by Lynn(Flybyferns) and GrifTheGreat.


0.1.0 Psuedacris regilla

[teslas intern]

Sorry about your frog Can you please answer these questions and highlight them if possible? It may help us determine what happened.

1. Size of enclosure
2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences
3. Humidity
4. Temperature
5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
6. Materials used for substrate
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.
8. Main food source
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often)
10. Lighting
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
12. When is the last time he/she ate
13. Have you found poop lately
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
15. Describe frog's symptoms and/or recent physical changes; to include it's ventral/belly area.
16. How old is the frog
17. How long have you owned him/her
18. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred
19. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats
20. How often the frog is handled
21. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
22. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)

by Lynn(Flybyferns) and GrifTheGreat.


0.1.0 Psuedacris regilla

1. About 35 gallons. They have since been moved to 4 gallon quarantine tanks.
2. Two whites tree frogs. About 2.5 inches snout to vent.
3. Unknown humidity, but the substrate was soaked so I'd say fairly high.
4. Temperature unknown, I had a 60 watt ceramic heater. I'll put a humidity/temp Gage in the quarantine tasks tomorrow.
5. Water was softened well water. No treatments were used.
6. The substrate was peat moss, covered in assorted native mosses. There were some blue spruce? Type needles in it on close inspection. The past moss I am almost certain had fertilizer in it, after checking tonight. Quarantine tasks have paper towel substrate.
7. Live pothos and English ivy, natural native moss and native tree bark. I used no sterilization...
8. Blatta lateralis roaches, raised them myself.
9. Tried to give them vitamins the night prior, but they didn't seem to eat any of the roaches out if the bowl. I only got them this week, and I don't know if they got supineness at the pet store.
10. A rainforest UVB bulb, and a ceramic heater bulb, both on 12 hour timers.
11. See above.
12. Tuesday for one of them, unknown for the other. They had roaches running around their bin and could have rated at outer times, but I didn't see them eat.
13. Haven't seen any poop, but it would have been hard to see. I should have an easier time now that they are on towels.
14.
15. The frog got really skinny fast. The healthy one had it's belly sticking out when it sits down, the sick one did not. It also maintained a dark color until it died, and spent a lot of time in the dirt.
16. Age unknown, I just bought them, but they were not full size, so I suspect maybe a year or so old. Just a guess, I'm no expert unfortunately.
17. 5 days.
18. I assume captive bred, as it was blueish, which means Australian? I got it at Petco.
19. I'd like to give it diverse food if it lived... I feed them lateralis twice, there were a number of them running around the cage.
20. A few times, due to escape attempts when I was removing suspect tree bark.
21. It was low traffic until this weekend, when my dad turned on the TV. I have since moved it to my room with the roaches and tarantulas, should be quiet enough there.
22. Changed water daily, and misted daily. did nothing else until I overhauled the tank last night to remove native moss and hot glue strings.

Let me know if more info is needed...

[Strider18]

I would get the humidity gauge in there immediately, the humidity needs to be about 80% or higher if I remember correctly. The forum has a care sheet for whites so you may want to look at that. Let us know the humidity levels asap.

0.1.0 Psuedacris regilla

[irThumper]

Wow, Scott, what a rough start Sorry you lost your frog! My four young White's tree frogs also came from Petco (two on Oct 1 and two on Oct 9, all from the same tank) and I can say pretty conclusively that I will never purchase another animal from that store. Within 3-4 days of purchasing our frogs one started having loose stool, eventually they all had it. I had a fecal test done and they tested positive for coccidiosis, an intestinal protozoal infection. Yesterday one of the frogs got a prolapse, so now I have to worry about that in case it recurs :/

#1. Answering the questions posted by Strider18 will help folks help you.

#2. In my opinion I would stop and undo EVERYTHING. Whites Tree Frog's need the proper temps and humidity, and keeping them in plastic boxes with or without holes is going to cause you way more problems. I'll let someone else chime in about your permanent setup, glue and etc. since I'm not to that point yet.

Here's my QT set up: I keep each of my Whites Tree Frog pairs in a 5.5 gal glass tank with a metal screen top lid. The tanks for quarantine should be MINIMALIST for ease of cleaning and possibly treating frogs (suggest highly you get fecal tests done). With reg room temp and a blue 60 watt light during the day and a red 60 watt light at night, I have maintained them at daytime temps of 77-80F and nighttime of 73-75F. Humidity is maintained at 50+% on average, going up to 70's% when misted, but not kept that high for any length of time. I use glazed saucers for 4" clay pots as soaking dishes and provide a couple of polished stones to help the frogs get in and out. I was using a live dracaena plant but now use silk artificial plants as they are easier to clean and sanitize (plastic is even easier but I don't care for the sharp edges). Substrate of choice: Damp Viva paper towels. Water: Bottled natural spring water in BPA free bottles (add dechlorinator). Food: Crickets daily, gut loaded on Flukers dry high calcium cricket diet; dusted once or twice a week with Reptocal with calcium, Vit D3, etc. Lighting: I use 6500k T8 grow lights/aquarium lighting (12 hrs on, 12 off) with the 60 watt blue & red lights for daytime/nighttime heating. Cleaning: Normally water change every day and spot cleaning for poo but when medicating should do a deep clean/disinfect daily of everything.

Anyhow, that's where I'm at for the moment. I hope your frogs will be fine and that you get a QT set up that works well for them. Good luck!

Here's the link to the White's Tree Frogs care sheet Frog Forum - White's Tree Frog Care - Litoria caerulea

[irThumper]

I would get the humidity gauge in there immediately, the humidity needs to be about 80% or higher if I remember correctly. The forum has a care sheet for whites so you may want to look at that. Let us know the humidity levels asap.

0.1.0 Psuedacris regilla

80% is WAY too high on average (except for when they are breeding), WTFs do not require a tropical humidity range and are able to be maintained well in the 50's% range.

Check out these books for more info as well:

1. The General Care and Maintenance of White's Tree Frogs and White-Lipped Tree Frogs by Philippe de Vosjoil (The Herpetocultural Library)
2. White's Tree Frogs by John Coborn (TFH)
3. White's and White-Lipped Tree Frogs by R.D. Bartlett and Patricia Bartlett (Barron's)

These books all have some good info, but in my opinion could definitely use updating to today's standards, so far though they are what seems to be available.

[Strider18]

Thx Thumper, want sure on the humidity.

0.1.0 Psuedacris regilla

[elly]

I don't think there's anything wrong with plastic boxes temporarily if you can keep temps and humidity level stable in them. I have mine in a tall transparent dog food bin, but since White's need ventilation, I cut out a large section of the top and replaced it with mesh. The mesh should have been hot-glued on the OUTSIDE of the tank. (Forgot that, and it makes me worry about heat lamps.) IF heat is an issue for you, you might want a glass QT tank instead. I've had to be very careful about how I heat mine since melting/ releasing fumes is an issue with plastic. Edit: For example I suspend my heat lamp well over the bin instead of resting it on it.

[elly]

Definitely pick up a temp and humidity gage. Also if you want to use native branches there are threads on good woods for vivariums and how to sterilize in the Vivarium and Enclosure section. Good luck.

[LilyPad]

PRODUCTS

Miracle-Gro® Sphagnum Peat Moss

OVERVIEW & BENEFITSAn excellent ingredient to lighten potting and seeding mixesRetains moisture and nutrientsHelps promote strong root developmentEnriched with Miracle-Gro® Plant Food

That could have definitely been the issue. Most of us use silicone to put our backgrounds on, I'm unsure about the safety of hour glue but i wouldn't think it would stand up well to the heat or humidity of a frog vivarium.

Can you get a cheap 10 gallon tank with a screen top for quarantine and then a real tank for after? The plastic boxes will not do any better for them. Tree frogs need ventilation.

There is a strong possibility that the frog was already ill coming from from Petco, but lots of other things going on also.

Water needs to be treated, even well water that doesn't have chlorine. Most of us use seachem prime. Native Moses will probably not survive because they need a dormant period and it's hard to sterilize them ensuring safety.

Also, please read this very thoroughly - Frog Forum - White's Tree Frog Care - Litoria caerulea

[teslas intern]

Thank you so much guys! I'm happy to say I still have two frogs this morning, and I'll make sure to pick up two cheap glass tanks today so I can heat them properly. I gather then, other than heat my quarantine setup is Ok, now I guess I need to find a herp vet to do a fecal test. How much does that usually cost? Also I read the care sheet it mentioned something about red leg? One thing I noticed was a dark purplish hue of the frogs (alive and dead) back legs, I'll post a photo... I hope it is treatable... Or I should say I hope it is nothing... Thanks again guys.

[elly]

Fecal tests for me have run about $29.00. Yeah, that's a lot for more than one frog, but the purplish hue you mentioned sounds worrying. I've heard healthy frogs bellies and legs look pinkish sometimes but they really shouldn't be dark purple/red. A picture would really help with the diagnosis, being able to tell if the color is normal or not. Once more, I'm not an expert, but I'd move quickly and call the vet ahead of time to make sure they can test for/treat cytrid fungus. Especially if the color looks blotchy or bruise-like in any way.

[teslas intern]

Ok guys, here are photos of my remaining froggies, both put up quite a struggle to get these, so I'm taking that as a good sign...





The dead one looked much worse, the pelvic area appeared bruised actually. I don't know how else to describe it...

[Mentat]

Sorry for your dead frog ; hard to pin it since there are a few problems. Get rid off all fertilized peat moss (and any decor that can't be sterilized) and scrub clean tank with 10% bleach soaked sponge or rag. Rinse well and let air dry before re-use. Get unprinted paper towels and use as substrate (around 4 ply thick and changed at least every other day). Get damp with dechlorinated water (even from well) using either Seachem Prime or ExoTerra Aquatize. Since frogs were in contact previously; you can quarantine together. All wood branch items going into tank should be baked for 1 hour at 200F and let to cool in oven overnight. Plastic items can be cleaned same as described for tank. Use silk plants to provide cover and help reduce stress. Cover all side but front with any paper; static cling aquarium background works well. For the time being leave cork out; too many crevices that can harbor pathogens.

Get fecal test done either at herp veterinary (Herp Vet Connection ) or a lab (Repti-Labs - Fecal Float Testing). If pathogens detected get meds from veterinary and complete all treatment while frogs are still in quarantine. Once clear with a final fecal test you can redo your enclosure and start all over again. Only recommended substrates are shredded coco or coco fiber mats. You can reuse cork if you remove glue and bake it; same process as with wood. Never use a plant fertilizer or any soil with it. If using live plants can use ABG type soil and lightly fertilize with aquarium plant fertilizers from Seachem. Good luck !

[irThumper]

Got some excellent advice there to start you off, Scott

Via Mentat: If using live plants can use ABG type soil and lightly fertilize with aquarium plant fertilizers from Seachem.

Carlos, what exactly does "ABG" stand for? I've been wanting to find/make a good frog safe soil for the plants and for a burrowing dish. I picked up some Black Gold Organic Mix (all natural) but it turned out to have a lot of perlite/vermiculite in it, bleh. I need something for plants like Pothos, Dracaena and Diffenbachia and then something more sandy/cactus mix like for the Sansevierias. Also, what can be safely used for drainage for plants WITHIN the mix (I use hydroballs in the bottom of the pots) other than perlite and vermiculite, that won't harm frogs...?

[elly]

Sorry I can't tell you if the color in those pics is normal or not. Maybe someone else can. But you should still get your frogs tested.

[LilyPad]

Got some excellent advice there to start you off, Scott



Carlos, what exactly does "ABG" stand for? I've been wanting to find/make a good frog safe soil for the plants and for a burrowing dish. I picked up some Black Gold Organic Mix (all natural) but it turned out to have a lot of perlite/vermiculite in it, bleh. I need something for plants like Pothos, Dracaena and Diffenbachia and then something more sandy/cactus mix like for the Sansevierias. Also, what can be safely used for drainage for plants WITHIN the mix (I use hydroballs in the bottom of the pots) other than perlite and vermiculite, that won't harm frogs...?

ABG - ABG, Atlanta Botanical Gardens Mix | Reptile Substrate | Josh's Frogs

A great thread regarding substrate - http://www.frogforum.net/plants-plan...lk-dirt-y.html

If the OP is not planting though, only coco fiber is needed once the frogs are done with QT.

[irThumper]

ABG - ABG, Atlanta Botanical Gardens Mix | Reptile Substrate | Josh's Frogs

A great thread regarding substrate - http://www.frogforum.net/plants-plan...lk-dirt-y.html

If the OP is not planting though, only coco fiber is needed once the frogs are done with QT.

Great Info, Amy, thanks!