Calcium Lack Paralysis or Back Injury???

[irThumper]

Makes sense to me. One reason I'm not overly keen about bowl feeding or tong feeding, I like to see the frogs go stalk their food and move around to catch it. In a more complicated set up I wouldn't want the crickets to get lost in the set up, though, but I can always make up a special tank just for feeding in the future when they get out of QT.

[FrogsFascinated]

Okay thanks for all the suggestion guys. I don't have a longer tank on hand, but I have a tank that's about the size of his current one (Maybe a little bigger) Would that work for him? Since it has a little more depth to it?

I saw you guys said he needs a bigger aquarium. When we inherited Pogo that's what he had been living in for the other ten years of his life, we were given that aquarium when we got him, We didn't realize that it would was too small.

Lija, I read what you said about Hydrotherapy, and feeding him night crawlers/worms, and what some of the others said about helping him to swim around, would that help at all if I didn't have the water too high? Only maybe 3/4 of an inch to and inch? That's what I did this morning. About the new diet, would it be okay to find normal earthworms out in my backyard, or would there be a risk of exposing him to some sort of disease?

Again guys, thanks so much for helping me out with Pogo it really means a lot, and helps me not too feel so bad for a frog ... and I bet if Pogo could talk he'd be saying thanks too!

[LilyPad]

Oh my Poor baby, I'm glad you've gotten lots of help on here. I hope he makes it.

[Lija]

Emily think of Pogo as 500lb human. how to help him would be very similar as you'd do for a human.
so nothing drastic, everything in moderation, progressively minimazing food intake and increasing moving around.

food has to be nutritious and not fatty. Superworms diet is like burger with fries diet.
How is he eating them? You put in front of him or are you using tongs?

qt rank - moist papertowels changed daily, plant, something to sit on not far from a ground, shallow water fish, cover 3 sides of the tank with anything not see through. Having that will help you see pooping, how often, how does it looks like. Things like that. It's temporarily.

water therapy. get water conditioner, anything from reptile or fish section of the pet store would do. I like prime by seachem the best, cheap and last for a very long time. Use that for any water (tap/spring) you use.
get pedialyte ( non flavoured, over the counter in any farmacy), mix one part of treated water with one part of pedialyte. Keep the frog in a bath or about 20 min every day for a week, water level no higher then frogs chin, supervise and assist if needed. Being obese he might not be able to support himself well in a water.

Mineral/vitamin supplements. Get reptiboost by fluckers, coat with it food you use. The best would be if you could find canadian nightcrawlers or earthworms from any store that sells fish bait. Just make sure it's not dyed.
earthworms from your backyard may contain stuff you don't want to feed to your frog.

Please keep us updated on a progress, bath concentration might change, the game plan may change accordingly to the progress. Really hope he'll make it.

[Heatheranne]

Hi all. I have read through all of the posts and comments.

I see a few health ailments going on here. The frog is both obese and edematous. There can be several different issues to tend to. Please bare with me as I assess each one and try to help.

Please remember, this is only to help. However the frog was cared for prior has not been good for this frog. I do not know the frogs previous owner, but I have worked closely with a herp vet over the last 4 years and also some very knowledgeable breeders. Please keep in mind, at this point it does not matter. All that matters now is that we help to get your frog healthy.

I'll number so it's easy to follow:

1. The frog is obese at an unhealthy level. He will soon progress into lymph heart failure, kidney failure and lipid keratpoathy in which he will also loose his eye sight.

To correct this situation I would not feed him super worms, waxworms, or mealworms. The chitin in their segments are like popcorn shells and cannot breakdown, leading to intestinal impaction, prolapse, and intestinal infections. Waxworms and super worms are like eating McDonald's every day. No nutritive value.

Healthy food choices are night crawler pieces of proper size. They are also soft and easy to digest . They are a good source of protein.

2. The trauma to the frog could have caused some circulation compromise. Monitor his limbs for movement, swelling, and discoloration.

3. Edema (swelling): ugh! This poor fella. He is so obese it's difficult to determine how much is edema. Edema occurs when the frog has improper electrolyte balance, trauma, or kidney failure. Lack of protein can also cause fluid shifts. Lack of nutrition and supplements can be corrected.

4. All captive bred frogs need supplements. This has been studied over and over. Captive bred diets are limited compared to that in the wild. Insects feast on healthy green plants that supply vitamins and calcium. The sun provides them with the vitamin D3 they need to properly absorb the calcium ingested. In captivity we must provide this for them.

Calcium with vitamin D3 should be lightly dusted on their food every other feeding.

Symptoms of lack of calcium in the body: numbness, tingling, twitching, tremors, lack of muscle control, weakness, paralysis and seizures, lack of intestinal motility, heart dysrhythmias. It limits all types of muscle functions including skeletal, cardiac, smooth muscle/visceral. This is because without calcium the impulses to move them are not functional.

Multivitamins for amphibians are also required. We all need small amounts of minerals and vitamins for vital body functions, such as potassium, magnesium, sodium and others. Amphibian MVI's are made specifically for them in proper concentrations. Repashy brand is the best one out there at the present time. Id recommend you use it as a light dusting once a week. Do not over do at this time as I am highly suspicious that this frog is possible having lymph and kidney issues. We don't want to overdose him either.

Pedialyte soaks: they are very helpful in redistributing proper electrolytes in sick and unhealthy amphibians. We are lucky in that they are like little sponges or blood vessels and can absorb through their skin. This is a temporary fix. The goal is to regain his health through proper nutrition.

5. Diet: this is a tough thing. We don't want to starve him but need to make healthier choices. Starving him will cause muscle wasting and more swelling. The goal is to feed better and just a bit less at a time.

Good gracious, I've written so much I need to read back through . I'll add more in just a few minutes.

[Heatheranne]

Please keep in mind, we only wish to help .

Okay...

6. Water: all water should be chlorine, chloramine, and heavy metal neutralized. It depends on the water you use. If your water has these chemicals or heavy metals, it should be dechlorinated and neutralized with a amphibian safe solution. This should be for all water bowls and for moistening substrates. Never use soaps or chemicals. You can use very hot water for rinsing bowls and then rinse again in dechlorinated water.
The only time you should use bleach is when decontaminating infected tanks or equipment and it must be thoroughly reversed with dechlorinator. And only 10% bleach, rinse, then soak in at least 4x the amount of usual dechlorinator.

Water bowls should be rinsed and new water added daily. Ponds should have a filter and water changes should be weekly.

7. Temps: mid to upper 70's at night. Day time should have a basking spot of around 80-82'F. The frogs will bask to aid in metabolism and digestion.

8. Humidity: 50-70%. Never over 80's for any extended period of time as this species has a tendency towards respiratory infections.

9. Exercise: this is a tough topic. With this little sweetie, it's going to be very difficult to encourage activity in his condition. We don't want to stress him either. He will move around as he is able. The best thing to do is to change his habits and hope he improves. A wider soak dish might encourage some movement, but be sure the water is no deeper than his chin when sitting and be careful.

10. Handling and stress: handling causes stress. Stress weakens their immune system. This allows for opportunistic infections. Minimize handling and keep his home in a nice quiet area.

11. Prolapses: it would be a good idea to have his feces tested for parasites and eggs. My first guess as to why he is having prolapses is the difficultly digestion the super worms. Another common cause is intestinal parasites. The test is fairly inexpensive and easy. Just send a fresh feces sample in a new baggie to Dr. Frye' office with a paper staying the rest you'd like done. You can either send a check or pay over the phone it's around $20. We'd be happy to share his info if you'd like it?

I'm sure I have missed something. I'll swing back later to check for responses.

Lija, Mentat, Der Chipmunk, and others have given you good info.

Please don't feel criticized or offended. We are here to help. The frog's previous owner was misled. We can teach the proper care .

Hey, this fella has a slim chance. Let's give him that. He is just a sweet victim of fault. Sometimes our adoptive frog parents have not been given the right guidance either. We have to remember the frogs are why we are all here .

[irThumper]

Awesome info, Heather, and great for everyone who owns White's to keep in mind!

[FrogsFascinated]

Hello Heather! Thanks for the information! We are planning to change his diet once his appetite is back, and will definitely use night crawlers instead of superworms.

I know you all think he is severely obese but he's really not... he's become bloated and "Puffy" within this week and a half that he's been sick.

Pogo is starting to look a little better, as he seems more perkier now and is looking a little more like himself (Skin isn't changing crazy green colors anymore) aside from the paralysis.

My mom made up a solution with some water and the powdered calcium supplement and he gets a little bit of that daily, and we got the pedialyte (Non flavored) for him to soak in and he got his first bath in that yesterday. Throughout the day I will drizzle some of the water from his little pond to keep him moist, because who wants a dried up froggy

I'll keep you guys updated, thanks again!

[irThumper]

A much easier way to keep him moist is to get a fine mist spray bottle, like the kind you find in garden centers for spraying plants, and mist him and his tank (with treated water, of course).

You don't happen to have any other before pics of him do you? It's not like folks don't believe what you are saying about the edema, but there's also excessive supratympanic ridge development, which often occurs when they are overweight.

This is a page out of the book "The General Care and Maintenance of White's Tree Frogs and White-Lipped Tree Frogs" by Philippe de Vosjoli (The Herpetocultural Library, 1990) which illustrates what I mean... the pic shows an extreme case



The back cover of "White's Tree Frogs" by John Coborn (TFH, 1994) shows Australian White's in their native habitat in the wild, I believe, to compare normal weight (love that pinto/pied one!)



The next pics are in pages from the book "White's and White-Lipped Tree Frogs: Facts & Advice on Care and Breeding (Full Color Photos)" by R.D. Bartlett and Patricia Bartlett (Barron's Reptile Keeper's Guides, 2001) they show an overweight adult female White's and a normal weight young male White's.

[FrogsFascinated]

Those book pages are interesting! I'll flip through my phone pictures and see if I have an old picture, My profile pic right now was an old one, and I think I have one when we first got him.

He doesn't look nearly as sickly as the frog in the first photo, much more alert and happier looking.

I'm giving him the calcium manually, is that good for him and will it help, or would it be better on food when his appetite is back?

He's gotten 2 pedialyte baths so far, for about half an hour each time. Is that time long enough, or too long?

The misting bottle idea is cool too! If I happen to have a bottle on hand, I'll try it!

Is there anything else I should be doing, besides keeping him moist, daily pedialyte baths, daily calcium supplements (Only a little not a super large amount), and when he needs it I help him get his shedding skin off because he can't reach around to do that anymore since he's bloated.


Thanks!!!

~Emily (And Pogo )

[Heatheranne]

Is he eating at all now?

[FrogsFascinated]

He's not for the time being, we need to find a place to get worms, unless getting them from our backyard is okay, although we've been diligently trying to find something. Is there anything else that would work, that's a nice soft diet with the protein that he needs???

[elly]

There may be something else but I haven't heard of it. In many places, Wal-Mart is still selling nightcrawlers for fishing. Or you could try a bait shop (just not dyed worms or red wrigglers.) I'm going to cautiously say garden/ compost worms are okay (someone correct me if I'm wrong), but you want to make sure they're from a place that hasn't had insecticide.

[FrogsFascinated]

Thanks Elly!!! My family and I are also beekeepers so we don't use insecticides/pesticides anyways, it could harm the bees too.

I was wondering, would it help at all if I made a video of what I do for Pogo on a daily basis? I figured that might help sum up all my posts into one big thing to maybe clear stuff up, and plus I like making videos and putting them together

Oh and one more thing, if I do make a video, would I have to post it on Youtube so I'd have a link, or can I upload one from my laptop just in my files?

[dj1]

There may be something else but I haven't heard of it. In many places, Wal-Mart is still selling nightcrawlers for fishing. Or you could try a bait shop (just not dyed worms or red wrigglers.) I'm going to cautiously say garden/ compost worms are okay (someone correct me if I'm wrong), but you want to make sure they're from a place that hasn't had insecticide.

I no longer keep WTF I did over 20 years ago, but still keep other anurans. and have done since I was 8 yrs old, i'm now 53.........
I wouldn't use the brandling or tiger worms found in compost heaps,or at least they are hear in the UK they are quite acidic and don't smell very pleasant, not many amphibians will eat them. Dig a piece of ground over and collect some worms that way, or put damp cardboard/carpet on wet ground and keep it damp and see what turns up.

[FrogsFascinated]

Thank you dj1, that was my plan. There's lots of places in my yard that are great for worms, since they stay moist but not drenched and if I dig up just a little portion of ground there are many worms.

Would it be a good idea to maybe make a box like shape out of plywood or use a bucket and put dirt in it, with some worms, as winter is coming and I don't think worms will be as abundant as in spring/summer/fall and I'd like to have a plethora of worms for Pogo once he gets his appetite back.

[elly]

Hmm, googling says that red worms/ red wrigglers and tiger worms are the same thing:Eisenia fetida , so we have those in the US too. I know they've been introduced here, but I don't know how widespread they are.

[Strider18]

Do not feed red wigglers to your frog, they hate them! I accidentally fed my Pacific chorus frog a red wiggler and more she had refused to eat worms at all for a few days

0.1.0 Psuedacris regilla

[irThumper]

I was just going to mention that about the redworms! And yes a video would be great! I'm loving making vids of my guys. Definitely put them on YouTube, I think it's the only way to add them here, by linking (correct me if I'm wrong someone?) Another great place to post vids is on the White's Tree Frog Lovers group on FB. Great group and some of the other White's tree frog lovers on here are over there also https://www.facebook.com/groups/WhitesTreeFrogs/

Here are some ideas for worm keeping bins Worm Composting Bins | What is the best Wormery?

Now, these are for composting worms (like red wigglers), but I think they would work for night crawlers/fishing worms. Will have to look into that more.

[Heatheranne]

Walmart sells night crawlers. Petsmart and Petco often do too. I sometimes order mine from www.joshsfrogs.com when buying a bunch at a time.

Once the prolapse has resolved and he is pooping normally without difficulty, he can eat the night crawler pieces and medium crickets. You can also stop the Pedialyte soakings at that time. Only feed him one 1" worm piece or 1-2 small/medium crickets every 2-3 days. Best to start with soft worm pieces. If he develops another prolapse, you'll have to go back to square one. Don't forget your ca/D3 and MVI.