Medication and Single Quarantine Tank?

[irThumper]

I'm going to try to medicate Shirley, Honey-Lime, sHEila, and Jelly Bean tomorrow night with wax worms and metronidazole suspension (wish me luck!) So far the two sets of froggles have each been residing in a 5 gallon QT tank (they were all originally tank mates at Petco); Shirley and Honey are 30 days post quarantine and Jelly Bean and "He" are at day number 21. Once I start medicating them would it be ok to move them all into one 10 gallon quarantine tank for this phase, or should I just leave them in the 5 gal set ups until the three week medication process has passed (I'm to dose them orally once a week for three weeks) and then wait for a negative fecal sample before I move them to the 10 gallon?

[irThumper]

Also, according to what I've read in the WTF books I have, juvenile WTFs (1/2" to 1 1/2") are to be fed daily, while sub-adults (1 1/2" to 2") can be fed every other day and adults (3"+) every 2-3 days. Jelly Bean is probably 1 1/2" now (have to measure everyone again) and everyone else is in the every-other-day feeding size, however, I've been feeding them every day since I worry with the coccidiosis they are losing nutrients. Is it ok to continue to feed them every day until they have cleared up?

[Lija]

I'm a bit confused... What are you treating they from?

But yes, you can feed then while treating, in fact you should feed them! And supplement food too. They will need all nutrients they can get to fight with whatever is happening.

and yes you should keep them separately for the duration of treatment and follow proper qt procedures. Once fecals are clean after the treatment you can move them to their permanent home. Keeping separately is needed so you can monitor each separately and test each separately too. It is possible they are not going to respond to treatment the same and one or more will need follow up treatment.

[irThumper]

I'm a bit confused... What are you treating they from?

But yes, you can feed then while treating, in fact you should feed them! And supplement food too. They will need all nutrients they can get to fight with whatever is happening.

and yes you should keep them separately for the duration of treatment and follow proper qt procedures. Once fecals are clean after the treatment you can move them to their permanent home. Keeping separately is needed so you can monitor each separately and test each separately too. It is possible they are not going to respond to treatment the same and one or more will need follow up treatment.

Sorry, I forget that not everyone sees all posts, lol... Got my frogs from Petco- 2 of them on Oct 1 and 2 of them on Oct 9. Honey-Lime is the first one to start having runny stools, the others eventually followed suit, so I had a fecal test done and it come back positive for coccidiosis. I just got the medication in and the vet wants me to give it to them orally, once a week for three weeks. I have to figure out the best way TO get it into them. One way is with a blunt tipped needle, but I don't have any, haven't been able to find them locally, and will have to order them... which will take more time. So the vet said that if I can inject the med into a wax worm and get them to eat it that it will be a less stressful way to medicate them. I just have to figure out if I can get that stuff into the worm, and if not what an alternate way of medicating them will be. (They are being fed gut loaded cricets daily, btw, dusted with Reptocal with Calcium, D3, and Vit A once a week).

I got to be thinking that with Shirley having the additional problem of a head tilt (unknown how she got that, suspect injury, but...?) and Honey not gaining weight or seeming to grow much, that they should stay in their 5 gal. Jelly Bean and sHEila (who turned out to be a boy) are growing, and active, and even though they were in the same tank at Petco, and have some loose poop, I'm worried about them becoming too restless in the 5 gallon and starting to injure themselves. The 10 gallon would still be a quarantine tank, just a bigger quarantine tank. Should I still keep them in their own 5 gal they're in UNLESS they start to hurt themselves? I don't want to have to treat nose rubs or cuts on top of the other

The two 5 gallon QT tanks side by side

[irThumper]

Also, according to what I've read in the WTF books I have, juvenile WTFs (1/2" to 1 1/2") are to be fed daily, while sub-adults (1 1/2" to 2") can be fed every other day and adults (3"+) every 2-3 days. Jelly Bean is probably 1 1/2" now (have to measure everyone again) and everyone else is in the every-other-day feeding size, however, I've been feeding them every day since I worry with the coccidiosis they are losing nutrients. Is it ok to continue to feed them every day until they have cleared up?

To clarify, they are being fed EVERY day, though age and size wize they can apparently be fed every OTHER day. Just wanted to know if I should keep them on a daily feeding regime at this point instead of switching to every other day?

[Lija]

Would you please describe symthoms and findings. Also what test was done, regular flotation or something else?

Are they to tong trained? If so you should just inject meds into your wax worm, or whatever else they like.

yes, if they eat every day, feed them every day. Cover 3 sides of each tank, if you see they are not comfortable, cover the 4th side too.

[irThumper]

Symptoms have been loosely formed to gelatinous stool and poor growth rate in one frog (in my opinion, as these are my first White's). I'm not sure if the symptoms of the frog with head tilt is related, she was before now the healthiest and fattest of the four, but since the onset of the head tilt she's lost some weight. She's still going after the crickets, but unless she can hit them just right they will get away. Also she's expending a lot of energy whenever she loses her balance turning right as she falls and rolls over. One smart thing I've seen her do is walk along the wall while propping herself up with her right feet ON the wall so she's actually more level, but that doesn't work when in the middle of the tank. If you are thinking her symptoms could be Chytrid related please let me know (I read your post in email before I saw it here)...

Here is the reply back from the vet in OK who did the fecal test and prescribed the Flagyl: "P&G's Vet Checked ReptilesVery cute frogs! I've had a chance to look at your fecal sample. I have found coccidia on their floatation and nothing on their fecal smear." So no worms detected apparently, but the other nasties were there.

[irThumper]

I have some video of Shirley's head tilt problem... don't remember if I posted it yet or not, thought I had in another thread somewhere... will go look.

Here it is... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNYV...ature=youtu.be

[Lija]

No, it is def not chytrid. Head tilt looks like neuro damage, why, Im not sure. I'm assuming their food is supplemented properly, you keep them clean and use dechlor water. Am I right?
are they WC or cb?

coccidiosis in frogs is usually difficult to diagnose, oocysts in fecal matter are often misinterpreted. Again assuming your vet is right and it is coccidiosis. Depending on a species they might be found not just in digestive system, but elsewhere too. If that is the case it is possible it causes neuro like symptoms.

Not sure who is your vet, didn't quite get it from FB link, but do you want to contact Dr. Frye for second opinion?

[irThumper]

No, it is def not chytrid. Head tilt looks like neuro damage, why, Im not sure. I'm assuming their food is supplemented properly, you keep them clean and use dechlor water. Am I right?
are they WC or cb?

coccidiosis in frogs is usually difficult to diagnose, oocysts in fecal matter are often misinterpreted. Again assuming your vet is right and it is coccidiosis. Depending on a species they might be found not just in digestive system, but elsewhere too. If that is the case it is possible it causes neuro like symptoms.

Not sure who is your vet, didn't quite get it from FB link, but do you want to contact Dr. Frye for second opinion?

Yep. They are CB, supplied to Petco by Sandfire. Frogs in QT- 5 al tank per 2 frogs, paper towel substrate. Crickets gut loaded on Fluker's dry high calcium diet fed on daily basis. Dusting crickets with Reptocal supplement (has Calcium, D3 and Vit A, etc) once a week. Water for soaking and spraying is bottled spring water. Temps daytime 77-81 F nighttime, I try for 75 but has been as low as 72 before I got my 60 watt red bulb.

The vet is Aaron Stachmus- Brookwood Animal Clinic Oklahoma City OK. I found him on FB; he raises his own reptiles and guarantees them vet checked (being he's a vet) tested and free of parasites so asked if he could run a test. Here is his FB page: https://www.facebook.com/VetCheckedReptiles Our closest herp vets are about an hour from here and most vets won't do a fecal without seeing the animal (don't know why that is because our vet (retired) back in the day would do a dog, cat or farm animal fecal test without having to see the animal??) I showed Dr. Stachmus pics of our frogs along with their measurements.

Does Dr. Frye ever come on FrogForum or do email or is it only by phone? I would appreciate a 2nd opinion if you think it's needed? I'm going to try to medicate the frogs tonight, but I want to make sure I'm doing the right thing....

[Lija]

second opinion is not really needed, runny/gello poop= Protozoa = metro treatment.

Are you using vitamins?

[irThumper]

Here's what he sent me for dosing the frogs: Flagyl Suspension 25 mg/ml - Give 0.04 cc per 10 grams body wt once weekly for three weeks; he recommended orally using the injected wax worms. Here is what he listed per frog:

Jelly Bean, 5 g wt: 0.02 ml
Sheila, 9 g wt: 0.04 ml
Honey-Lime, 7 g wt: 0.03 ml
Shirley, 11 g wt: 0.04 ml

Fecal test was $23
Med $17
3 1.0 ml syringes $1.50
Postage $6.50

(Just found Dr. Frye's email on this post http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-prepared.html Hope it's still current?)

How do I read the syringe to tell what is 0.02 (etc)...??? I'll have to take a pic of the syringe and post it...

[irThumper]

second opinion is not really needed, runny/gello poop= Protozoa = metro treatment.

Are you using vitamins?

The Reptocal has the following vitamins: A, D3, E, MENADIONE, THIAMINE, RIBOFLAVIN, D-PANOTHENIC ACID, NIACIN, VIT B6, FOLIC ACID, BIOTIN, VIT B12, CHOLINE, INOSITOL, P-AMINOBENZOIC ACID

[Lija]

Here's what he sent me for dosing the frogs: Flagyl Suspension 25 mg/ml - Give 0.04 cc per 10 grams body wt once weekly for three weeks; he recommended orally using the injected wax worms. Here is what he listed per frog:

Jelly Bean, 5 g wt: 0.02 ml
Sheila, 9 g wt: 0.04 ml
Honey-Lime, 7 g wt: 0.03 ml
Shirley, 11 g wt: 0.04 ml

Fecal test was $23
Med $17
3 1.0 ml syringes $1.50
Postage $6.50

(Just found Dr. Frye's email on this post http://www.frogforum.net/tree-frogs/...-prepared.html Hope it's still current?)

How do I read the syringe to tell what is 0.02 (etc)...??? I'll have to take a pic of the syringe and post it...

That is correct. You also need to completely desinfect qt tanks every day and absolutely everything in them and change gloves in between tanks.

0.02ml is exactly that 0.02 ml (metric system lol) you need insuline syringe, that tiny skinny 1ml one, stub the cup on a bottle if your meds, turn it upside down and get required amount in a syringe.

[irThumper]

That is correct. You also need to completely desinfect qt tanks every day and absolutely everything in them and change gloves in between tanks.

0.02ml is exactly that 0.02 ml (metric system lol) you need insuline syringe, that tiny skinny 1ml one, stub the cup on a bottle if your meds, turn it upside down and get required amount in a syringe.

Oog. I've been using gloves, and changing them between tanks, but I've been doing regular cleaning and not a complete disinfect! I'm going to take the live plant out of Shirley and Honey's tank and give them silk plants like Jelly and sHEila have, much easier to disinfect! I'm also going to switch from porous teracotta pots to glazed ceramic ones for the same reason.

[irThumper]

Here's a vid I took of everyone today https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNC2...ature=youtu.be

Here's pics of the syringe. I've never dosed anything so small! Sorry for my ignorance (I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree when it comes to math and measurement stuff) but the syringe is marked from 0.1 to 1.0... where is 0.02 and so on-- is that 0.2 on the syringe or the small lines before 0.1...? Totally embarrassing, but ask it not know it not! Those WOULD be the small lines, right? Handy calculator and 0.01 x 10= 0.1, so yeah :P

[Mentat]

... Water for soaking and spraying is bottled spring water...

Please do not start a new thread when dealing with previously described health issue/event. It makes following up much harder and could cause the missing of important information .

Lija has given you great help in here. Bottled spring water could be anything that meets city/state codes for human drinking. It could be over-filtered or even have added chloramines. Unless you know exactly how is that water processed; strongly recommend using dechlorinated tap (Seachem Prime or ExoTerra Aquatize work great). More on subject in here: http://www.frogforum.net/vivarium-te...hing-else.html. Good luck treating frogs !

[Lija]

Carlos is right about the water, you should use prime or similar for bottled water too.

and yes these are small lines you need 2 small lines below the zero for 0.02

[irThumper]

Via Carlos: Please do not start a new thread when dealing with previously described health issue/event. It makes following up much harder and could cause the missing of important information .

Lija has given you great help in here. Bottled spring water could be anything that meets city/state codes for human drinking. It could be over-filtered or even have added chloramines. Unless you know exactly how is that water processed; strongly recommend using dechlorinated tap (Seachem Prime or ExoTerra Aquatize work great). More on subject in here: Water: Distilled vs purified vs everything else. Good luck treating frogs !

Sorry about that I've been posting various places because I'm trying to get info to help my frogs and I don't always get replies.... :/ This post was primarily about whether or not the frogs could be housed in a single 10 gal QT tank, though, which is something I haven't previously posted anywhere else. Also you'll have to forgive me if I tend to repeat stuff, I have trouble remembering things sometimes-- old concussion from car wreck with lasting negative results, faulty memory and transposition which is like dyslexia, where I type/write/sometimes say things mixed up vs seeing words and letters jumbled up. Again, sorry, I just want to help my babies get better...

[irThumper]

Carlos is right about the water, you should use prime or similar for bottled water too.

and yes these are small lines you need 2 small lines below the zero for 0.02

Thanks! Does filtering the spring water using a Brita filter help? I better go get some dechlorinator just in case... We can't even drink the tap water here btw, it's filled with rust and is just nasty. Landlord won't upgrade the plumbing...