Breeding tank

[jarteta97]

Didn't know you were here, Dave. Same profile pic and everything

Listen to this guy ^

[Dendro Dave]

Didn't know you were here, Dave. Same profile pic and everything

Listen to this guy ^

Mmm.. Yesss... Gather unto me Dendroboard brothers and sisters. We will convert these good and friendly folk to angry militant froggers as we have so many many others before them, and soon they to will all cry out...

"I for one welcome our new Dendroboard overloads!"

.....Muahahahaahaa.

All hail Zardoz! (Aka Dendro Dave)

(Bit of a running joke on DB)

(Just kidding, I'm nice and laid back as long you seem to give 2 poops about your animals, and aren't a certain company attempting to flood the hobby with mixed morphs and a tidal wave of BS)

(Omg a fox emoticon... you will never get rid of me now!)

[jarteta97]

Hmm, did I hear a little hidden message about USA Dart Frogs? Sometimes I'll just go onto that thread for a good laugh, and then cry a little bit for the poor frogs

[Dendro Dave]

My machinations are sometimes subtle, sometimes not... but never without purpose

[flybyferns]

Hey Dave...how are you ?

The tank conversions for the 20 are very popular , as you know.
It's those prices $$$$$ I can understand.....I look at 9-24 h, 2-36 H and 3 - 18 H ( forced to use the 18" cause the 24H don't fit on the shelf very well)

Often the price of the enclosures prevent people from purchasing our idea of the "perfect" enclosure.
Not in this case, but the witnessing of poor husbandry gets people off on the wrong foot. "So whats wrong with putting 10 Whites tree frogs in a 10 gallon tank, the big box stores do it! They look happy ....all snuggled together""

Same goes for the price of PDFs.... It's out of control !

So the point to my message is...... when a member states I have made ( meaning already spent the $$ etc) on a converted 20H for a breeding tank ...and asks "will this work" ; unless it's a really ridiculous mistake (personally) I let it ride....It really will be okay. As mentioned larger would be better.....but it will be ok.

While we are on the topic of take sizes....Funny little story:
Heatheranne and I recently purchased 4 each --- R variabilis "Southern" 4 from John Clare and 4 from Shawn Harrington.
We have paired them off....and will be meeting at WP in Nov to switch out pairs.
The are beautiful, healthy and happy !

Sooo, I am fostering her pair. I have them( each ) in QT since I got them in August.
Both pair are breeding .... I have had more than one clutch of eggs from both pair (housed separately) and in fact 2 clutches already oow. Each pair is in a 8 x 12"H cube, I use for QT ! Yikes !

Food for thought....So is it experience that gets them to breed or tank size?

I will admit seeing ----> and moving along building for tinc species..... to move them from QT tanks because they appear stressed to me.

"The almighty they" tell us bigger ! They ( or maybe "we" ) will be happier , of course, with a larger tank with a billion dollars of expensive plants and lights. But, just the same------they'll be just fine in the 20! as long as there is plenty of cover.

BTW you can have the BUT the is MINE ! lol

[Dendro Dave]

I hear you Lynn, and good job trying to keep the bloodlines fresh ...basically I just try to give the best info I can based on my experience and my understanding of others experience that I've gleaned over the years, and give some of the reasons why... then let the person decide. If it's something really bad I try to be polite first usually, 2nd and 3rd... if I can't get through after that the claws may come out.

I don't think a 20vert for 2 darts is insane, but while I won't attack someone for it, I also can't in good conscienc endorse it. And I agree sometimes you just to work with what the person has or can do for now. Freaking out and running them off the forums doesn't help us, them, or the animals, but occasionally someone just has to be told in a less tben friendly way their being cruel to their animals, because we've exhausted every diplomatic option

As experience vs size... I'd say either can result in breeding. You could have a really good vivs maker that puts in all kinds of climbs, ledges, tunnels, and then plants stuff over some of that stuff so that not only didn't they loose any usable space they actually doubled it or more. But then you can have some with not particularly good vivs, but just by virtue of size has enough hides, micro fauna and micro climates that the frogs do fine as long as the tank isn't over stocked.

While sometimes experience and skill will let you get away with some things, you still have to preach what's going to be best for most, even if you don't always do it yourself, but then ultimately I think as the best keepers mature they actually start following their own advice all the time and stop trying to get away with what can work so they don't loose animals that didn't have to be lost. Sometimes frogs are gonna die, but as a keeper sarts to see the majority of his/her animals reaching their max lifespan, they finally get the proof that going above and beyond what works has its rewards.

Also a.lot of people use breeding as evidence that what they are doing works and should be perfectly fine, and it is a valid point, but we've seen mating take place in shipping crates while the frogs crossed the ocean packed in like sardines and likely with a few DOAs. We've seen it occur in horrible overcrowded, or poorly constructed vivariums. So you can be doing things straight up wrong and still get fertile eggs, pull them and raise them or maybe have a few TADS morph out of a water bowl as long as you don't let it dry up.

So IMO while breeding is some evidence that things are OK, you have to look at how long the parents lived after that, how eggs went bad, how many TADS failed to morph, how many frog lets failed to thrive and then ultimately how many of your animal get to their max life span.

I'd say in the end the only real proof that you are for sure doing it right is when you realize you've got a bunch of geriatric frogs over 10 years old who can still breed, high morph out success rate and just aren't loosing animals once the've been in your care for awhile.

[Unnar Karl]

Thanks for all the replies, gave me a lot to think about