Puck's terrible twos

[stopbuffering]

I have owned Puck, my pacman, for over 2 weeks. The first week he was eating 2-3 crickets every other day (from tongs). While many things I have read said to feed juveniles daily, I was happy that while adjusting to his new environment he was eating at all. However, on the second week things changed. He stopped eating anything (I've tried crickets, powdered food, and nightcrawlers). He now buries himself when you pass food in front of him or he hops away.

He has also started to hide all of the time. I know they bury themselves but the first week he would come out at night and soak or do something (though I do know that he soaks sometime in the middle of the night because there is always fresh substrate in the water dish).

I just don't know if I should worry or do something for this poor guy. He's about the size of a silver dollar. The tank is a 10 gallon long. The substrate is coconut fiber and the water is always dechlorinated. He has two plants, and big bushy one he loves next to his water dish and a smaller one next to his half log hide. Temps range from 75-78 during the day and 72-74 at night maintained by an under the tank heater placed on the side a day a light with a dimmed daytime reptile bulb 60 watt. The humidity ranges from 60 to 90 maintained by my spraying the tank. The tank is not in a high traffic area.

He definitely looks round and his color looks the same (a nice green with dark spots) so part of me thinks I should worry, but I figured I'd at least ask if someone has any idea of what's going on or if I should change something.

[Lija]

you need to raise your temps asap, keep day at 80-82 and night 76-78

can you pls post pic of a frog and a tank

[Randy]

yeah thats a bit cold see about getting a reptifogger for humidity and a good hygrometer try to keep it at 80 percent , question is he shedding?Id ask someone about the reptile bulb at 60 watts isnt that a bit much for a 10 gallon?I have a 50 gallon and my 2 bulbs are 25 watts apiece i use a uth under my tank actually 2 of them one under my pond the other under 1/4 of the tank . my tanks raised a half inch to dissipate some of the heat from the under tank heaters .along with plants .just a suggestion .

[stopbuffering]

Thank you. A lot of what I read said that you don't want a pet kept in such warm temps because they can't burrow as deep in a tank to get away from the heat. The bulb is also on a dimmer and kept a little less than half. I originally wasn't sure what bulb to get since so many things said different things. Should I switch to a red or purple nocturnal bulb? I had read a few things that said this would be better for them during the day.

Whatever bulb I get, I can adjust the brightness to keep the temps steady so that's not that hard. I'll also get a bigger under the tank heater to keep the night temps up, too. I assumed he was OK since he always soaks at night during the cooler temps, and was also told that they soak to help cool off (my logic being that if he's soaking to cool off, then the temps can't be too cool), plus he's always on the cooler side of the tank. But I appreciate the advice and will up the temps. I have a hydrometer and I'll get a reptifrogger to help with the humidity. Right now it's usually in the 70%s, but that might help it from dipping down to the 60%s. I also was considering getting (and probably will now) something to cover part of the lid to help keep moisture in.

Added the pictures. Also, he doesn't look like he's shedding.

[Lija]

Oh I just realized we didn't welcome you here yet!

welcome to the forums!

temps you need to jeep your pet need to be similar to those in a wild, in Pacman frog case it is wgat I said earlier, it can be slightly higher or lower, for babies you can go to 84 during a day, the numbers i stated earlier are happy safe medium that you should be aiming. Prolonged keeping in low temps will lead to seriuos heath problems.
60w is ok, provided you have a dimmer. I use 50-60 too.
the best is to get infrared lamp and use it with a dimmer, you can use it all day and night to keep temps where they need to.
but it would be even better if you could get hydrotherm by zoomed, plug your fogger, infrared lamp and your UTH you have. That thing will keep humidity and temp spot on day and night.
You can use ceramic heater too.


Based on your pics you need to increase your humidity, tank looks too big, but very nice! Frog is little cutie too.

Let's see how it will go after you fix humidity and temps, please update us.

[Randy]

i use 2 red bulbs( both for night and makeup heat) and my daylight bulb is a mainly uvb light and to be honest with you unless the light is rated for a dimmer id get rid of the dimmer switch and go down in your wattage . I am an licensed electrician and dimmer switches do 2 things on a bulb that's not rated for one. It can cause a fire because of low amps and it can shorten the life of your bulbs. As far as the uth goes if you sized it right for the tank raising your tank off the ground will allow for convection of the heat( most come with small silicone coasters to raise your tank up off the ground anyways ) and a good thermostat will regulate the heat as well. My trade is heating cooling plumbing electrical and refrigeration . I'm pretty good with regulating heat lol.

[Lija]

Randy, all reptile specific heat lamps are dimmer safe, provided you use proper light domes and dimmers.
UTH are designed for heating under tank with a substrate on, but for pacman frogs you can't use as they intended to. When used attached on a side they don't heat up tank much, therefore you need to use them bigger then your tank volume, very rarely that you can use only UTH for pacman frogs and have proper temp range.
people are having success combining UTH on a side with infrared lamp or ceramic heater, it is a difficult, but not impossible to achieve.

The best is to use hydrotherm controller, plug everything in it and live worry free over humidity and temps.
there are different controllers, but in substantially higher price range.

[stopbuffering]

Thank you for the advice. I'll switch out the bulb for an infrared bulb. Should I put a regular household bulb (lo wattage set a little above the tank) on the timer to provide "daylight?" I'll also get a frogger for the humidity.

Should I switch him to a smaller tank or will he be ok in this one provided I fix the heat and humidity? That first week he was pretty active and he left little burrows in various places in the tank, so to me it seemed like he liked the space.

It's a little funny because I was given a few care sheets by a friend for my pacman and that's where I got my information for the temperature and humidity I have now. However, the people at petsmart (I had to pick up a few things there) told me what you said and I was honestly a little skeptical of their advice and just went with what my care sheets said. I was also getting a little confused because care sheets I looked up online all said different things or weren't very specific. I see that you guys have a care sheet and will print that out to use (it's a lot more detailed and makes much more sense than the ones I've seen).

Again, thank you very much. I'll get everything I need after work and will let you know how things go.

Also, I just looked up that hydrotherm thing and it looks amazing. I just threw that, the frogger, and an infrared light into my amazon cart and went for the one day shipping.

[Lija]

Yes, you can use regular household lamp for day cycle, yours is not albino, so any lamp would do, I prefer to use the lowest W energy saving lamps, I think they are 13w. They don't really need any light, just ambient light to know if it is a day or night.
You will get the best feeding response in about 30 min after day light is off and temp cool off, that is when they go hunt in a wild.

I wouldn't change the tank right away, he was eating for you in there before, switching to different tank may stress him even more.
That care sheet is pretty good. Frog Forum - Pacman and Horned Frogs - Ceratophrys - Care and Breeding

No worries, if there is anythyng you are confused about, you are very welcome to ask

edit - the best is to keep humidity in 70-80 range, I always suggest to aim for 75 to have a room for +/-.
With experience you just know if humidity is too low or too high without using hydrometer, but I very strongly suggest for you to use a proper one.

Yay for hydrotherm! You will love that thing!

[stopbuffering]

I usually try to feed him about 20-30 minutes after his light turned off, so I'll just keep doing that. I'll get everything set up tomorrow and hopefully in the next few days he'll start eating. I got him some nice looking nightcrawlers that I'm sure he'll love when he finally tries one. If he's still not eating I'll see what I can do about a smaller tank until he's a little more grown.

I'll shoot for 75% humidity and get the temps correct for daytime and nighttime.

[Mentat]

Hello and welcome to FF! Lija has given you good advice, please do correct the temps and humidity. Gauges should be located couple of in. above the substrate. Please answer the questions below to ensure all other requirements are OK. Thank you !

“Trouble in the Frog Enclosure”

The following information will be very helpful if provided when requesting assistance with either your frog or enclosure. To help with your questions, please utilize the below list and post the information in the proper forum area to get advice from FF members that keep the same frog. This will allow for little confusion and a faster more informed response.

1. Size of enclosure
2. # of inhabitants - specifically other frogs and size differences
3. Humidity
4. Temperature
5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish
6. Materials used for substrate
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials.
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv.
8. Main food source
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often)
10. Lighting
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure
12. When is the last time he/she ate
13. Have you found poop lately
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine)
15. Describe frog's symptoms and/or recent physical changes; to include it's ventral/belly area.
16. How old is the frog
17. How long have you owned him/her
18. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred
19. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats
20. How often the frog is handled
21. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area
22. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc)

by Lynn(Flybyferns) and GrifTheGreat.

[stopbuffering]

1. Size of enclosure: 10 Gall
2. # of inhabitants: Just one, Puck
3. Humidity: 60-90; getting corrected tomorrow
4. Temperature: 75-78 daytime; 72-74 night. Getting corrected tomorrow
5. Water - type - for both misting and soaking dish: Dechlorinated water; with my new mister I'll use distilled, but continue with dechlorinated for soaking
6. Materials used for substrate: Coconut fiber
7. Enclosure set up i.e. plants (live or artificial), wood, bark and other materials: 2 Artificial plants - The bigger one over the water dish and the smaller over the half-log hide
- How were things prepared prior to being put into the viv. I set it up and did a day-long test run before getting the frog
8. Main food source: Crickets, but switched to nightcrawlers (he hasn't eaten one yet, but that's what I'm going to stick with for the most part)
9. Vitamins and calcium? (how often) He got Calcium with D3 twice; the first time I fed him since I was told he hadn't had it recently before purchasing him and then again right before he stopped eating (a week after the first feeding)
10. Lighting: Daytime reptile bulb; will be switched to an infrared bulb and a regular household light for "day"
11. What is being used to maintain the temperature of the enclosure: The light and a small UTH on the side that was helping keep nighttime temps up
12. When is the last time he/she ate: A week ago
13. Have you found poop lately: No
14. A pic would be helpful including frog and enclosure (any including cell phone pic is fine: Included above
15. Describe frog's symptoms and/or recent physical changes; to include it's ventral/belly area.: None.
16. How old is the frog: Young; the size of a silver dollar about
17. How long have you owned him/her: a little over two weeks
18. Is the frog wild caught or captive bred: Captive
19. Frog food- how often and if it is diverse, what other feeders are used as treats: Originally every other day with crickets. From. When he starts eating again, I'll mainly stick with night crawlers and get crickets every now and again. I also have a powder food that I'd like to get him used to and will rotate that in as well.
20. How often the frog is handled: Never. I have a scoop and a small critter carrier if I need to move him out
21. Is the enclosure kept in a high or low traffic area: low
22. Describe enclosure maintenance (water changes, cleaning, etc): Water is changed daily. Tank cleaned weeklyish (I cleaned it the first time a little over one week)

[Lija]

Everything seems good given the changes you are making already! When he starts eating you will need to add multivitamin powder once a week.

Can you describe how exactly the feeding time looked like when he was eating, are you doing anything differently? Anyhow once you fix temps, leave him alone for a day and try to do exactly how you did when he was eating, don't annoy too much though. And please update us on a progress

[stopbuffering]

I did get the multivitamin the second week when I realized I had forgotten it. I had planned to give it to him a few days after he got the second calcium feeding, but of course that never happened. But yes, I will make sure to do that as well.

To feed him I usually had to find him, which involved gently feeling around with the scoop until I saw something move under the dirt. I uncovered him and he usually hopped out of his space. One by one I would catch a cricket and hold it in front of his face with tongs. He'd jump and catch them. Once he even jumped a few inches before I even got the cricket to his mouth. Sometimes for the last cricket I would just let it loose and drop it near him then "herd" it with my tongs to keep it close and he'd eventually catch it. He would eat about 3 or 4 before he'd bury himself when the next one came near, so I'd stop and leave him. I did try to feed him every day, and what I described above happened every other day. The other days he'd just rebury himself so I'd leave him alone.

[Lija]

You know what else you can do, you can take some dirt out so he can't burry himself fully, but the layer is just enough for him to burry himself with eyes sticking out. This way his stress levels will go down as you don't need to get him out of his hiding.

[stopbuffering]

That's a great idea. I'll see about getting some of the dirt out. Thank you.

[stopbuffering]

Sorry if you'd rather I not post twice in a row, but I wanted to provide a quick update:

Everything was set up last night and it was pretty smooth running. I actually woke up a few times during the night (not planned) and checked on Puck and the tank to make sure everything was fine, and it was. Also, I'd like to note, that last night was the first time he didn't completely bury himself. Ever since changing the light he has been only burying himself up to his eyes, instead of hiding himself completely. I'm going to try and feed him tonight.

I did have a quick question about vitamins and the like. I have the ZooMed Pacman Frog Food. Hopefully I can get him used to eating from the tongs again (he didn't seem to have a problem with them before, I just didn't own the food when he was eating) so I can start adding that to his feeding. From what I've read, it can basically substitute insects, but I don't plan to do that. I'm just wondering if I fed Puck this food twice a week if it would provide him with the vitamins he needs.

Also, is it even good stuff? I bought it partially because if I went away for a weekend and needed someone to take care of him I know a few people who would, but they'd prefer to feed him the frog food and not worms (though they'd feed him worms if that's the only option). Thanks!

This is the website that shows the ingredients

[Lija]

Yes that stuff is ok to feed occasionally, myself I prefer samurai pac food for these very occasional days when I'm out of worms in a fridge. They can write whatever they want to make it more attractive for customers, but real thing will always be the best.

no, you still need to get multivitamins, the best staple for them is nightcrawlers, they have the best ca:P ratio and are easiest to digest.

That sounds great that he is not burying himself anymore, meaning he feels safer and ready to chomp on some food. Try to offer some tonight, hope he will go for it.

[stopbuffering]

He ate! I was feeling so sick because he wouldn't eat even after correcting the temps and humidity. I started trying to find a Vet that I could talk to (not that I don't love your advice, but I was hoping for someone I could visit and talk with and possible bring Puck to make sure nothing else was wrong). But he finally ate! He ate a few pieces of nightcrawler. I am still going to find a vet, since it wouldn't hurt knowing where one is, and I'll probably let them know what happened just in case this was a fluke or something, but I'm so happy right now. And by he just ate, I mean I finished feeding him 5 minutes ago.

I was also able to get a few more pictures of him if you were interested.





Edit: I did also want to add that I have found a number of vets that will work with amphibians around me, I just need to figure out which ones are worth the drive. I'm also waiting to hear back from two (but it's the weekend, so I probably wont hear anything until tomorrow).

[Lija]

Yay! Let's hope he will carry on doing so. Knowing a few vets around you is great! It is good to have that info handy for the future.

For your froggy, with temps like you had, he might be feeling like it is fall, time to fast, getting ready for winter... And now he was like oh yeah! Summer! Let's do some growing here lol