Hello there, Frog Forum people

[Plettschner]

I've been a lurker for a little while and have got to the point where I have questions that I want to ask.

I know I am doing a few things wrong and want to get them right.

Right now, we are "fostering" 2 green frogs and 3 pickerel frogs that were living in a "tarp swamp" in the back yard. My kids brought them in and asked if I could make a home for them for now. They are currently residing in a 40g wide tank (36"x18"x12") with a 3g-4g "pond" and the rest is about 3"-4" of coconut soil topped with some sphagnum moss. A Tetra 10i Whisper Eco-Filter keeps the water clean and I've been changing out half of the water once a week.

I've been trying to learn what I can and provide a good environment for the froggies. We are about a 3/4 of a mile from the nearest pond/marsh area, so I was surprised to see them in the back yard. We do get a lot of toads, some wood frogs, and a few small tree frogs here and there. Have not spotted any peepers in the yard, but they are around. There are vernal pools usually just a few hundred yards away, but those have been gone for some time.

My first question is whether it is safe to keep pickerels and green frogs in the same tank... I've heard mixed reviews about this in regards to the toxicity of the pickerels. I've also read that green frogs can and will eat pickerels, so that is contradictory to the toxicity concerns. Right now, everyone is about the same size, but I believe the greenies will grow larger over time. If it is an issue, most likely the pickerels will be taken down to the local swampy marsh (fresh water). Even if not, I suspect it may not be a good idea to have 5 frogs in one tank.

Anyway... hello everyone.

[Frogman1031]

Hello! Welcome to the frog forum!

First, mixing species is very very bad. Pickerel frogs are toxic to most other frogs. However, green frogs are immune to this toxin and WILL eat the pickerel frogs. Its not a matter of if, but when

Moss poses a serious impaction risk, especially to these two species who like to tackle their food at full force. I recommend that you remove that ASAP.

Can you post pictures of both the enclosure and all of the frogs. Would like a side view of the green frogs specifically the tympanum. That is the "ear". The circular piece below their eye. If this can be done without handling frog that would be great.

These frogs can get MBD (metabolic bone disease) very quickly so it is important that you are dusting the food with a calcium plus vitamin d3 supplement every other feeding and a multivitamin powder once a week. Which feeder are you using? Crickets should be gut loaded as well for maximum nutrition. Night crawlers are other alternatives. They still must be dusted but they are healthier than any cricket. They must be dye and chemical free though. Dubia roaches are also a good choice.

Pickerel frogs especially are good at escaping. They will observe to see where the tank opens first and a make a break for it before you notice. Especially if there are four other frogs darting around.

Have you treated your water? Chlorine is dangerous to amphibians. Most members use seachem prime. Even well water can be dangerous so that water must also be treated.

Feeders should be no bigger than the space between frogs eyes. For some reason pickerels like to munch on things they cannot swallow....

here is a caresheet. Their care is similar to the leopard frog so it should help. Frog Forum - Leopard Frog Care - Rana pipiens (Schreber, 1782) and R. sphenocephala (1886)

[Plettschner]

Thank you for the info!

I figured the mixing was a bad idea. I'm leaning toward keeping the green frogs as they are a bit more mellow, but I'm concerned about how big they will get. I'm also considering telling the kids to pick one and the rest will go back "home". They are cute and I enjoy watching them, but I'm trying to be realistic.

Moss removed... I did not know that and actually had read in the Leopard Frog care sheet to use it!

I'll get some pictures today. I attached one of the enclosure before I put the filter in.

They have been eating small/med crickets from the local Petsmart along with small earthworms and the occasional small moth I have been catching. I have not been dusting... need to get on that. Also need to figure out a stable food source for them that is manageable. I've been reading about cricking farming and not sure if I want to do that. Worms may be easier/better. What products are suggested for the dusting?

I have been using filtered well water (under-sink, dual cartridge). Interesting, I was just reading about treating it. I figured it came out of the ground, so should be the same stuff they live in... sounds like Novaqua is a good product to treat for metals, etc.

Have not had a pickerel try to make a run for it yet... will watch them closely.

[Frogman1031]

The best supplements i have used and that are the most recommended is Repashy. They make calcium and vitamin powders

[Plettschner]

Would this be what I need: http://www.amazon.com/Repashy-Calciu...dp/B00IOVUB0Q/

[Plettschner]

BTW, the amount of information on this forum is staggering... and a bit overwhelming for a n00b. What's good for feeding what depends on what species and what vivarium may not be good for this kind of dusting powder and worms and isopods and and and... etc., etc.

I guess I'm trying to find what works for a "typical" Ranidae and a lot I find when searching seems to be geared toward the more exotic... maybe it works for all?

I have questions regarding the following that I think are more species specific:
- Substrate type and depth (have not seen any burrowing in the coconut soil yet)
- Reliable, yet not overly complicated food source
- Is a mister necessary
- Cleaning/replacing substrate... poop on/in the substrate especially
- False bottom or half/half tank setup (version 2.0 of the tank is already in the planning stages)

Perhaps I'm being overly concerned about minor details? Just trying to do a good job.

[jarteta97]

I won't be able to answer all the questions, as I mostly deal with tree frogs, but here's my attempt, lol:

For live plants, ABG (atlanta botanical garden) mix is the norm, but Neherpetoculture.com has its own mix as well that I've heard good reviews of.

For food, I do believe that crickets would be the typical staple. The rule for size is that the cricket should be no bigger than the space between the eyes of the frog. Crickets can typically be found in any major and many smaller pet stores.

A mister system is not necessary, but to maintain humidity, you might find it necessary to hand mist with a small spray bottle that hasn't held any other liquid before.

If you have ABG mix, cleaning poop is not necessary. The poop will break down and actually add to the health of the soil. If you use microfauna, such as springtails or isopods (the clean-up crew), in the soil, then changing substrate is actually not required.

A false bottom setup is pretty simple and cheap, actually, and doing a half water/half land tank will allow you to slope the soil and make it look more natural. The idea of a false bottom is that there is a layer of what that is essentially under the soil. The water feature would just be where the false bottom does not exist, and there is an opening into that layer of water. The water level has to be at least 1/2" under the soil level to prevent bog conditions (unless you want that ).

Don't worry, details are often most important when building a tank, and often result in the difference between success and failure.

I'm not an expert when it comes to these kinds of frogs, but hopefully others will chime in.

Hope it helped.

[Frogman1031]

There are bits and pieces in the ABG mix that is not good if the frog swallows it. Options to prevent this are
-leaf litter on top (do not collect from outside)
-tong feeding
-bowl feeding

green frogs typically do not burrow. Mine (RIP) never did that.

Crickets are the usual staple. However, if you are up to the task, then you can try dubia roaches. They do not smell bad and getting a colony started is easy. They are also more nutritious.

If using ABG mix with springtails and such, poop will pretty much get rid of itself. If using coco fiber, spot clean the poop and change every five or six weeks

[Plettschner]

More good info.

I do not like the idea of having to dump and reload substrate every 5 or 6 weeks... and that stuff isn't exactly dirt cheap (ha!).

I like the idea of lower maintenance, yet a happy frog tank. Do I have to use live plants? I have a bit of a brown thumb.

Leaf litter sounds doable. I know I will not always be able to tong feed.

Will the frogs eat the springtails and isopods? Seems a silly question... they seem to eat anything that moves.

I'm still not sure if I am all in on the idea of raising my own feeders... maybe, but it would have to be somewhat tidy and simple. Would it be advisable to buy, say, 100 at a time and then keep them alive for feeding over a month?

it's not that I don't want to put in the effort... I just want to keep it manageable along with everything else (family, dogs, work, etc)

Have these questions got to the point where I should be posting in the appropriate forums?


BTW, apologies for the complaining back there.