Purchased 2 new P. Terribilis, but they don't look like the ones that I already have

[Carisab]

Hello,

I currently have 2 juvenile P. Terribilis Orange. They don't seem very friendly with each other. I thought that I would get two more and have 4 total.

I purchased 2 P. Terribilis Orange from a large frog supplier online - one that has been mentioned here many times, so I don't want to say the name.

The two new froglets are a week apart in age from the ones that I already have. I was thinking perfect. They are in quarantine for 30 days before I introduce them all together into the vivarium. I have had them one week and they are definitely strong and healthy. The shape is different. They have more of an arch than the two I have already (not so visible in the pics). They sit more like a tinc. I know that I am new to dart frogs, but since I have gotten into this I have looked at many pictures and have been to many pet stores looking. The big ? is the green on the legs. Both of mine have black legs that got orange spots and filled in. These guys are definitely different looking. I am worried that they are more Phyllobates bicolor. I called and was told that they are P. Terribilis, no question about that. I read that the Phyllobates bicolor are smaller than the P. Terribilis. I would have preferred to buy and choose from a show, but there is only one show a year in Vegas.

Anyone have any ideas???? The first two pics are of my first 2 (no green). The second two pics are of the new frogs.

[moghue]

Im sort of new myself so i may be wrong but they look more like the bicolor then the orange terribilis to me. hopefully some one else will chime in and have a better answer.

[DigitalPunk]

I will have to agree based on these pictures they look like Phyllobates Bicolor... lets see what others think. They may not be done coloring up yet.. Do you know how old they are? Got any additional pics?

[Mentat]

Sorry; but you are not doing any seller a favor by not identifying name, because now all are doubtfully guilty of sending you the wrong frogs .

I'm looking at my frogs and their orange color does no look like any of yours. Could be the light used for pics or my laptop rendition of them; but my P. terribilis "Orange" are really orange with some black specking that will fade off as they grow. You got the tadpoles at a show from Dartfrog Connection right; did you bought the newer frogs from them too? Strange but the first two pics look more like this frog !

Main sellers in here keep accurate records of their live inventory. My recommendation is to send them a nice email with the attached pics of the frogs you bought, so they can check their records and see if there was a mix-up at their end. .

[Carisab]

Okay, I don't want to taint any sellers. And I also have to say that I am not unhappy with any of my frogs. The first two are from Dart Frog Connection and are 9 and 7 weeks. They did start out a bright and dark orange but as my little Polly has filled in she has gotten lighter. Her (just guessing) legs fill in more every day. Little Wally is 7 weeks and still small. These two are not very bold. They are even afraid of small pin head crickets.

The second two came from Black Jungle, they are the only ones that have stock right now. They were so nice and helpful. Very accomidating with shipping. The frogs are bold and hearty. Not fearful at all. I was told that they are 7-8 weeks. The arch seems to not be as pronounced since they have been eating well and growing. Maybe as they have been getting more comfortabe they have stopped sitting on their toes ready to escape. These guys will eat pin head crickets. They are just a bit bigger than my 9 week old but aren't full color yet (or as chunky).

I would be afraid to send them back even if they would take them. I like them and I guess I just want to identify the differences. Will it still be okay to put them all together? They are of the same family of Phyllobates. I am not looking to breed. I know that P. Terribilis takes almost 2 years to mature and lay eggs. I just want a happy family of frogs. With that said, I will allow them to breed if they do and I will raise the froglets and most likely give them to friends.

I have added more pictures but I have to say that my new guys did not cooperate and stay still very long for me. The first two are the DFC frogs. The rest are the new guys.

[Mentat]

... Will it still be okay to put them all together? They are of the same family of Phyllobates. I am not looking to breed. I know that P. Terribilis takes almost 2 years to mature and lay eggs. I just want a happy family of frogs. With that said, I will allow them to breed if they do and I will raise the froglets and most likely give them to friends...

It's not OK to mix these frogs, if they turn out not to be the same species and morph line (i.e. P. terribilis "Orange"). First reason is they could not get along and the bolder ones stress out the shy ones. That could in turn develop into chronic stress and then an opportunistic pathogen could set in and wipe out the frogs .

Second reason is that there is always a possibility that they could breed. Once you let one hybrid or mixed morph frog out of your control there is no telling where it could end up. And if passed as a true species or morph down the line to unknown persons, it can contaminate the captive breeding pools that supply our hobby. That is a serious issue and it brings unwelcome responses all across the dart hobby .

[deranged chipmunk]

I agree with Carlos. While I think they are just different bloodlines, I think they will color up over time, I would still raise them separately until you know 100% what each pair is. Better safe than sorry.


Education is the most powerful weapon we can use to change the world ~ Nelson Mandela

[Carisab]

Thank you Carlos. I did call them again and they told me not to worry. They said that they will turn solid orange and the green tint will go away. They assured me that they don't have bicolor and haven't had them for a year or so. They said what bill said, different blood lines and they will look the same when they mature. I say again, Black Jungle is so nice and the gentlemen was so patient. I was impressed with how bold and healthy these guys were after shipment.

I will be very cautious if I decide to put them together. My biggest concern is the health and well being of the frogs. I swear, no breeding if the legs stay green. I even made sure that when I got 2 more, they came from a different store. I was worried about in line breeding.

I understand about screwing up a species. I have watched it all my life with birds, it's difficult to find a Macaw with true coloring these days. I may be new to frogs, but I've raised animals all my life

[flybyferns]

Hello Carisab,

What a big pain this is for you

First lets straighten out some VERY important information:
P terribilis (Golden Dart Frog) & P Bicolors ( Black-legged dart frog) are 2 difference species.
Therefore you should not be mixed at any age .
( care is the same ...so care sheets are combined)

When breeding the different -common -morphs of P terribilis ( orange, yellow, mint) they will ALWAYS look the same
ie the off spring of 'mints' from 2 different sets of 'Mint' parents will always look just about identical ...there will be very little , if any color /dimorphism.

Bicolor should be bread with bicolor only.
Each of the common P terribils morphs ( orange, yellow, or mint ) should be housed separately to reduce the possibly of mucking up the morph's purity.

Having said this, all of these froglets ( both the P bicolor and the P terribilis ) go though quiet a bit of color change for months and months!

If it has been determined that you DO NOT have P bicolor ( Black-legged dart frog) , then keeping 2 different color morphs of P terribilis together temporarily ( ie orange and yellow) will be ok, as far as I know. You just don't want them to breed; of which will not happen very soon. P terribilis will usually start to breed at about 18 months. Some may not breed for more than 2 years.

However, I have read - many times- descriptions of a differences in behavior between the morphs- reading on more that one occasion the "mint" are most bold? I have 'mints" . They are NEVER hiding, never shy ( even as froglets they were very bold.) You have to assume that it is possible the yellow and orange morphs may have a differences on behavior as well?

I suppose to be on the safe side, you might consider keeping them in QT ( or a modified QT ) longer than planed to see what you have? I'm with you ---- once I have them ...I would have a very difficult time returning them.

From what I see with the photos you have posted , I think what you might ask the breeder is:
did you purchase:
P terribilis "Orange" morph
or
P terribilis "Yellow " morph

The difference between the the orange, ( yellow and mint) P terribilis morph ( as adults) bred in captivity ....is VERY evident.

The difference between maturing/ froglet P terribilis 'Yellow" and P bicolor is not as easily distinguished

I'm sure there are some tricks to determine froglets of the orange and yellow morph P terribilis. Perhaps , ask the breeder.
Send them photos ?? of your froglets for their review. Maybe they are breeding only one morph of P terribilis at this time . Wouldn't that be nice to hear

great information:
Frogs main

[Mentat]

Lynn: My P. terribilis "Orange" from Josh Frogs started fading from black to a clear orange (not yellow) as babies and are bold, even as .75 in. juveniles. They hang around in the open area in front of enclosure all day, until retreating to sleeping areas at night. Even the shy one has joined the group. I'm very careful when feeding, because know one day, one of them will try to get the flies from the cup .

[Carisab]

I definitely purchased P. terribilis Orange. All of them. The camera does not do the first two justice. They started out a beautiful metallic orange and as the oldest has become more filled in, some of the metallic has faded. My local pet store has both yellow and orange they purchased from Josh's Frogs. My larger one is the same color as the orange at the pet store. When I went to the show, I was never thinking I would buy frogs. When I was looking for two more, I looked at my pet store and the ones they have are much older and larger. I was looking for something close to the same age and size. I wanted them to grow up together.

I did see froglets in both orange and yellow at the show and the color was very different. I think the orange seems to fade a little and they are less obvious as adults. When I look up pictures of the orange, there is so many hues of orange. From a vibrant orange to a milky orange.

I am still a little worried my second set are green legged bicolor, but time will tell. The legs seem to be the last thing to fully fill in. I was told that they don't breed bicolor and they will fill in orange. I have notice them plump up like the terribilis seem to do. They are also on the same size scale as the terribilis. On the bold scale, they are definitely bold. It's my first two that I am not questioning that are shy. I sometimes think they are hiding from each other. They have become a little more comfortable with each other. I know those are the two that look from the pictures to be a light orange and more yellow, but they match the orange at the pet store. The yellow is not a match at all.

It is just a waiting game now. I will keep them separate until I am sure. They are not even 3 months old, so I am sure they have more change to come.

Lynn, are your bicolor smaller than your terribilis? I hope I will be able to tell better when they get older. Are the calls different?

Thank you!

[Carisab]

Lynn: My P. terribilis "Orange" from Josh Frogs started fading from black to a clear orange (not yellow) as babies and are bold, even as .75 in. juveniles. They hang around in the open area in front of enclosure all day, until retreating to sleeping areas at night. Even the shy one has joined the group. I'm very careful when feeding, because know one day, one of them will try to get the flies from the cup .

Carlos, can you post new pics so I can check out your babies? Do they have any metallic like sparkles or sheen? I am surprised when I Google P. terribilis orange how the color varies. I wish mine had stayed a bright clear orange.

[Mentat]

I'll try to get new pics; but my phone camera is not the best. One thing we have not discussed is food supplements. Can you please describe your whole supplement schedule for these frogs? Thank you !

[Carisab]

Right now I give them calcium w/D3 on Mon & Fri and on Wed they get a Multivitamin. I do add in Super Pig 2x a month on alternate Saturdays. My first two don't mind the supplements, in fact I think they like that they show up better on the soil. My new guys, they wipe their mouths on the damp paper towel and give me dirty looks. They must have been eating something that tasted better than the Rep-Cal I use. I feed the supplement in the morning and use up what is left in the cup (if any) in the afternoon. I try to tap the excess off so they aren't dripping powder.

They are all good eaters and that is fun to watch. I ordered some XS Phoenix worms and I hope they are small enough to give once or twice a month until gone. I am all for variety. I will try beetles when they are larger and I have more experience. I worry about over feeding, but they don't look fat and I know they are growing frogs.

Any suggestions? I looked at the dusting charts that you and flybyferns have up and came up with something similar.

[flybyferns]

Hello,

I definitely purchased P. terribilis Orange. All of them.

I am still a little worried my second set are green legged bicolor, but time will tell.

Sorry , I'm dense I'm a little confused ?

I don'tt have bicolor....I have P terribilis "Mints"

Keeping them in QT longer is a great plan !!! How cold that possibly hurt ( plus they will feed really well ; they are hungry frogs)

Best, Lynn

[Mentat]

I've heard good things about Rep-Cal products; but have not tried it since I'm happy using Repashy. With the big frogs I use the schedules myself posted; but for darts currently use Repashy Calcium Plus almost every feeding.

Once a week replace it with Repashy's CA and another day with Multivitamins. Couple times a month throw in Repashy's Vit A and thats it. Also, myself keep a close eye on expiration days (buying the smallest bottles keep them fresh) and store them in refrigerator .

[Mentat]

Carlos, can you post new pics so I can check out your babies? Do they have any metallic like sparkles or sheen? I am surprised when I Google P. terribilis orange how the color varies. I wish mine had stayed a bright clear orange.

This pic is from couple days ago and taken with bad phone camera (Droid Razer) using flash . They have a "glossy" sheen to them; but would not call it metallic . How are yours doing?